WI no F-14/F-15 /F-18 with USN and USAF

Khanzeer

Banned
The 23 was really fast on the deck but the Tornado F3 was quicker and the Buccaneer S2 was in that odd space where it was subsonic but fighters needed to go into burner to keep up with it. The other problem with the 23 was that it was a horrible thing to maintain, overly complex and not great to fly, it is one reason why most operators dumped them after the end of the cold war whilst they were happy to keep and upgrade Mig 21's and SU22's.
There was a time and place for it (1975 to 1990) in major conflicts.

keeping it functional for decades and flying CAS missions in minor conflicts was not it's best use nor was it designed for that purpose.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
You don't win wars with parity, and as has been pointed out there are diminishing returns to hotting up old fighters. There are a range of reasons why wealthy countries with advanced militaries don't do it.
Was the f4 in production till late 70s ? Or stopped earlier ?
Parity was in numbers only , 1 on 1 the f4 was vastly superior to any flogger version
 
Was the f4 in production till late 70s ? Or stopped earlier ?
Parity was in numbers only , 1 on 1 the f4 was vastly superior to any flogger version

The MiG 23 ML and MLD were probably on par with latest historical versions of F-4 as fielded by USAF.

Soviets will not sit idly in 1970s/80s, just to be surprised when West introduces new generation of tactical aircraft. With F-14/15/18 absent (but F-16, Mirage 2000, Tornado and much upgraded F-4 being there, plus sub-sonic stuff, plus maybe F-16XL), the reply might not be the historical MiG 29 and Su 27, but it will not be a warmed-up MiG 23 either. Actually, a new-gen 1-engined fighter by MiG company might've been produced even more than MiG 29.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
^ That is fascinating a single engined Mig fighter which is comparable to F-20 tigershark maybe ?

really the ML/MLD were equivalent to F-4E in terms of avionics /weapon systems as well ?
 

SsgtC

Banned
^ That is fascinating a single engined Mig fighter which is comparable to F-20 tigershark maybe ?

really the ML/MLD were equivalent to F-4E in terms of avionics /weapon systems as well ?
Yes. The F-4 was constrained by what you could get to fit in the nose for radar. The F-4J which was designed for the Navy with a specific focus on air-to-air combat had only a limited look-down, shoot-down capability. As time has gone on, fighter radars have gotten larger to provide more range and better resolution. You can't put a bigger radar into an F-4. A few countries have managed to upgrade the Phantom's radar by modifying newer radars to have a smaller dish. But it was done at the cost of radar performance. So it's better than what was in there before, but not as good as an unmodified system. By the late 60s, early 70s, modifying the F-4 had hit the point of diminishing returns. In other words, the point where the costs start to outweigh the benefits.
 
Yes. The F-4 was constrained by what you could get to fit in the nose for radar. The F-4J which was designed for the Navy with a specific focus on air-to-air combat had only a limited look-down, shoot-down capability. As time has gone on, fighter radars have gotten larger to provide more range and better resolution. You can't put a bigger radar into an F-4. A few countries have managed to upgrade the Phantom's radar by modifying newer radars to have a smaller dish. But it was done at the cost of radar performance. So it's better than what was in there before, but not as good as an unmodified system. By the late 60s, early 70s, modifying the F-4 had hit the point of diminishing returns. In other words, the point where the costs start to outweigh the benefits.

Correct me if I am wrong but it's been upgraded with the F-16's radar which is a fine radar but it does not have the range of say the F-15's radar.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Correct me if I am wrong but it's been upgraded with the F-16's radar which is a fine radar but it does not have the range of say the F-15's radar.
The latest models developed for Turkey have an Israeli EL/M-2032 pulse doppler radar with of range of about 80nm. A few other recent upgrades have seen the F-4 fitted with the AN/APG-65GY and the AN/APG-76 radar. Japan has used the AN/APG-66 in their Phantoms, which is the same radar that the F-16A/B came with. Greek Phantoms actually have AMRAAM capability now.

So basically they've used radars from just about every fighter that's been in production since the late 70s. With the most common types being medium range radars (+/- 150km range)
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Yes. The F-4 was constrained by what you could get to fit in the nose for radar. The F-4J which was designed for the Navy with a specific focus on air-to-air combat had only a limited look-down, shoot-down capability. As time has gone on, fighter radars have gotten larger to provide more range and better resolution. You can't put a bigger radar into an F-4. A few countries have managed to upgrade the Phantom's radar by modifying newer radars to have a smaller dish. But it was done at the cost of radar performance. So it's better than what was in there before, but not as good as an unmodified system. By the late 60s, early 70s, modifying the F-4 had hit the point of diminishing returns. In other words, the point where the costs start to outweigh the benefits.

I read in the periodical bi-weekly magazine "Take Off" from the late '80's regarding the F-4 Phantom II

At the end of the three part series it described how McD had offered the Luftwaffe an upgraded Super Phantom with fly by wire, F-18 radar and engines.

Does anyone know or can confirm if they took up McD's offer.

Regards filers
 
I read in the periodical bi-weekly magazine "Take Off" from the late '80's regarding the F-4 Phantom II

At the end of the three part series it described how McD had offered the Luftwaffe an upgraded Super Phantom with fly by wire, F-18 radar and engines.

Does anyone know or can confirm if they took up McD's offer.

Regards filers

The Luftwaffe's F-4F ICE comprised of the APG-65 radar, AIM-120 capability, newer RWR, and a Mil-1553 data bus. However, it lacked Link 16 and they retained their J79s as a cost measure I'm assuming, as it was only a stopgap until the Typhoons introduction.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I read in the periodical bi-weekly magazine "Take Off" from the late '80's regarding the F-4 Phantom II

At the end of the three part series it described how McD had offered the Luftwaffe an upgraded Super Phantom with fly by wire, F-18 radar and engines.

Does anyone know or can confirm if they took up McD's offer.

Regards filers
That sounds like what Greece did to their Phantoms.
 
i far to late for discussion but i can give some interesting alternative to F-15/14

McDonnell-Douglas propose upgrades to F-4 program like better powerful Engines other Missiles and Radar system
and better aerodynamics to improve the F-4 fight capabilities similar to F-15/14
But after disastrous F-111 program USN and USAF wend separate ways


main-qimg-a6dc3d784cb2f559f06b704ec585fd80


Oh Yes that was also consider for USAF use
ADCOM-F-14.jpg
 
The VG Phantom was only considered for USN and Royal Navy use. The bottom pic is a proposed ADCOM F-14 to replace the F-106 as an interceptor.
 

SsgtC

Banned
i far to late for discussion but i can give some interesting alternative to F-15/14

McDonnell-Douglas propose upgrades to F-4 program like better powerful Engines other Missiles and Radar system
and better aerodynamics to improve the F-4 fight capabilities similar to F-15/14
But after disastrous F-111 program USN and USAF wend separate ways


main-qimg-a6dc3d784cb2f559f06b704ec585fd80


Oh Yes that was also consider for USAF use
ADCOM-F-14.jpg
At that point, you're really building a brand new aircraft and calling it a variant to try and fool Congress (see the Super Hornet for an example of this, it's got like 10% parts commonality with Legacy Hornets, but it was called a variant for political reasons).
 
http://www.f-4.nl/f4_34.html

In early 1984, Boeing and Pratt & Whitney announced that they would engage in a joint Phantom modernization program, targeted primarily at foreign users of the Phantom. McDonnell had already turned down a similar idea, citing the fact that the Phantom was already old technology and fearing that Phantom upgrades would compete with their F-15 Eagle, which they also hoped to sell on the export market.

The "Boeing Super Phantom" (as the project came to be known) was to have been powered by a pair of Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofans. This engine was based on the F-100 turbofan which powered both the F-15 and the F-16, and had about 70 percent commonality with the F-100. The PW1120 turbofan was 40 inches shorter than the J79 and 25 percent lighter in weight. However, it had 35 percent greater dry thrust and 30 percent greater afterburner thrust. It was anticipated that the use of the new powerplants would give a marked improvement in Phantom performance, with sustained turn rate being increased from 9 to 10.5 degrees per second and initial climb rate being increased from 42,300 to 51,000 feet per minute.

The aircraft was also to have had a 1100-US gallon conformal fuel tank fitted onto its belly. This tank was to have had hard points on it for four bombs or two Sparrow air-to-air missiles. Such a tank could carry nearly twice the fuel of the standard centerline drop tank of the Phantom and offered only 29 percent of the drag. The forward nose landing gear was to have folded inside a forward faring in the tank, and the rear fairing of the tank was to have carried an AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser.

The electronics were also to have been upgraded, with various options being made available to fit specific customer requirements. Among the options being proposed were the fitting of a GEC heads-up display, a Honeywell 423 ring laser gyro inertial navigational system, and APG-65 radar.

Boeing envisaged the establishment of cooperative programs between it and indigenous aircraft companies in the customer's own country. However, before anything could be produced, the Air Force's Aeronautical Systems Division suspended all work on the Boeing Super Phantom. The Boeing "Super Phantom" was quietly shelved.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
What if F-4 soldiers on as the frontline fighter in the 80s and USAF develops the F-16 to be as a WVR multirole fighter ( w/o bvr weapons ) like in OTL but none of the heavy weights teen series fighters
Naturally the Soviets are also just improving the mig23/25 and no flanker fulcrum are developed
How will it impact the 80s aircombat
Iran Iraq
Arab Israeli
And gulf war in 1990
Question is why?

The Fleet needed a proper Fleet Interceptor. The F4 couldn't handle the AIM-54 and the associated radar systems. AIM-54 = New aircraft

The Air Force needed a counter to the Mig-25. The F4 was not capable of that role. Stopping MiG-25 = new airframe.

The F-16 was never meant to be anything but a light fighter, the original version couldn't even operate BVR missiles. The F-18 was, as much as any other role, designed to provide a A-7 replacement for the fleet as well as following a Congressional mandate to find a lower cost airframe to supplement the very costly Tomcat.
 
You also have to remember that the USAF never wanted the F-4 and replaced it in the air superiority role as soon as they could.
 
Sukhoi had a prototype SU27 - T10 in early 70's and Mig had been cooking up the 29 from the same time. There were ReconSat images from 1973 showing the T10 which means the design likely went back to the late 1960's.
 

Zen9

Banned
So looking though my books......
Su-15M an Su-15 with the new ogive wingform as flown on the T10. More agility, more hardpoints for missies, developed into the Su-19M with the R67-300 engines.
Final offering with Poorga look-down/shoot-down radar and the AL-21F-3 engiens.

Ye-8 would likely be designated Mig23, as it's so divergent from the Mig21.

US developments
Convair's successful F106 had bags of potential for development.
Including a naval version.
This also flew with a modified nose to house the GAR.9 and AIM-47 system.
Quite a variety of engine options...
F106X even had the AIM-54 Pheonix around 1969.

F107 was quite a potent aircraft.
F8U-III was the ultimate Crusader, and the direct contender to the F4
These three are the obvious alternatives that might exclude the F4 but also sets the US on a path well away from the F14/F15/F16/F18.

Strong alternative is the North American Rockwell NA-323 and related NA-335 for the F14 and F15.
I've a very soft spot for the Convair 200 and 201.

But Grumman's G-623 iand McDonanell Douglas Model 263 are competitors to the LWF along with Vought's V-526
 
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