WI no F-14/F-15 /F-18 with USN and USAF

Khanzeer

Banned
What if F-4 soldiers on as the frontline fighter in the 80s and USAF develops the F-16 to be as a WVR multirole fighter ( w/o bvr weapons ) like in OTL but none of the heavy weights teen series fighters
Naturally the Soviets are also just improving the mig23/25 and no flanker fulcrum are developed
How will it impact the 80s aircombat
Iran Iraq
Arab Israeli
And gulf war in 1990
 
The USN will want an F-14 style aircraft since Soviet bombers and their missiles are getting better each year, so they'll want to engage them further out from the Carrier group.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
The USN will want an F-14 style aircraft since Soviet bombers and their missiles are getting better each year, so they'll want to engage them further out from the Carrier group.
F-4 can fulfill that role too but it does not have ARM missiles just SARH ones
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Why would they do that?
given the lopsided success in the vietnam war after topgun training, it was felt no further resources need to be devoted to new fighter programs

and the Hokkaido incident later on confirms that foxbat was a paper tiger
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
they are just fielding improved versions of mig-21/23/25 and other resources are going elsewhere in their vast military complex
maybe improving their economy too
 

GarethC

Donor
given the lopsided success in the vietnam war after topgun training, it was felt no further resources need to be devoted to new fighter programs

and the Hokkaido incident later on confirms that foxbat was a paper tiger
The USN isn't worried about Foxbat, Flogger, Fulcrum, or Flanker.

It's worried about Kingfish and Kitchen, Blinder, Badger, Bear, and Backfire.

Sparrow or Skyflash regardless, F-4 is not really capable of stopping a regimental attack from Soviet Naval Aviation before it turns your bird farm into an artificial reef.

It's not the F-14 airframe, it's the AWG-9 and the AIM-54 Phoenix.

The USN doesn't need a fighter. It needs a fleet defence interceptor. And the F-4 isn't it.
 
The Fleet Air Defense role pre-dates major Vietnam involvement, back to '61 and McNamara's 'handling' of the F-111 programme.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
so maybe the USN has a version of A-5 vigilante as a fleet interceptor to fulfill this particular role and not a fighter plane like F-14
 
What if F-4 soldiers on as the frontline fighter in the 80s and USAF develops the F-16 to be as a WVR multirole fighter ( w/o bvr weapons ) like in OTL but none of the heavy weights teen series fighters
Naturally the Soviets are also just improving the mig23/25 and no flanker fulcrum are developed
How will it impact the 80s aircombat
Iran Iraq
Arab Israeli
And gulf war in 1990

As pure theoretical study, why not? Spend resources on weapons and sensors instead of new airframes. Helmet mounted displays, off boresight missiles etc. already in 1970's. US could seriously outperform Soviets here thanks to better electronics. USAF could probably manage with an upgraded F-4 until age of stealth, and longer thanks to standoff weapons. This upgraded F-4 would have as much similarity with original as C-130J has with C-130A.

The USN would be the problem, as AWG-9/AIM-54 combination would not fit on F-4. But how about Lockheed "F-3" Viking based fleet defense fighter a la Douglas Missileer? As secondary role it could carry tons of standoff weapons for ASuW work or various bombs for colonial police actions. A "F-3" could stay on CAP practically for ever, and it could even mount a galley and toilet a la Su-34.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
even in the gulf war of 1991, w/o F-15 the USAF will likely have the same success even with the basic F-4E/AIM-7F combination
the F-15 are largely an overkill
 
What if F-4 soldiers on as the frontline fighter in the 80s and USAF develops the F-16 to be as a WVR multirole fighter ( w/o bvr weapons ) like in OTL but none of the heavy weights teen series fighters
Naturally the Soviets are also just improving the mig23/25 and no flanker fulcrum are developed
How will it impact the 80s aircombat
Iran Iraq
Arab Israeli
And gulf war in 1990
Hi.

What do you envision replacing the F111 if the F15 doesn't evolve into the F15E ?
 
As pure theoretical study, why not? Spend resources on weapons and sensors instead of new airframes. Helmet mounted displays, off boresight missiles etc. already in 1970's. US could seriously outperform Soviets here thanks to better electronics. USAF could probably manage with an upgraded F-4 until age of stealth, and longer thanks to standoff weapons. This upgraded F-4 would have as much similarity with original as C-130J has with C-130A.

The USN would be the problem, as AWG-9/AIM-54 combination would not fit on F-4. But how about Lockheed "F-3" Viking based fleet defense fighter a la Douglas Missileer? As secondary role it could carry tons of standoff weapons for ASuW work or various bombs for colonial police actions. A "F-3" could stay on CAP practically for ever, and it could even mount a galley and toilet a la Su-34.
I suppose in theory the USN could continue development of their F111 ?

Perhaps in this time line the USN and General Dynamics sorts out the issues with the naval F111 and the USAF buys more F111f's.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
I think the F111 was a perfectly capable aircraft for the 80s and even 90s far ahead of anything the soviets had
I see no reason to replace it for technical reasons , i the believe the reason it was as the F-15E was multi-role and cheaper to maintain
 
What if F-4 soldiers on as the frontline fighter in the 80s and USAF develops the F-16 to be as a WVR multirole fighter ( w/o bvr weapons ) like in OTL but none of the heavy weights teen series fighters
Naturally the Soviets are also just improving the mig23/25 and no flanker fulcrum are developed

Before answering the actual questions:
- MiG-31 will still go on, due to the Americans fielding the B1 and cruise missiles
- we will still see F-16C equaivalent, combining BWR and maneuverability in single airframe
- MiG-23 gets the bells & whistles from MiG-29 (better radar, IRST, HCMS, missiles)
- F-4 receives/uses new-gen electronics that was used on OTL F-51s

How will it impact the 80s aircombat
Iran Iraq
Arab Israeli
And gulf war in 1990
1 - Improved F-4s vs. improved MiG-23s - hmm, depends how much the export versions are nerfed, plus it depends much on pilot's skill, tactics, and availability of all-aspect IR missiles.
2 - Pretty much as historically.
3 - Gulf War 1 was pretty much the 1991 affair. UN forces trash the Iraqis as they did historically.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Before answering the actual questions:
- MiG-31 will still go on, due to the Americans fielding the B1 and cruise missiles
- we will still see F-16C equaivalent, combining BWR and maneuverability in single airframe
- MiG-23 gets the bells & whistles from MiG-29 (better radar, IRST, HCMS, missiles)
- F-4 receives/uses new-gen electronics that was used on OTL F-51s


1 - Improved F-4s vs. improved MiG-23s - hmm, depends how much the export versions are nerfed, plus it depends much on pilot's skill, tactics, and availability of all-aspect IR missiles.
2 - Pretty much as historically.
3 - Gulf War 1 was pretty much the 1991 affair. UN forces trash the Iraqis as they did historically.
There will probably be no need to give F-16 a SARH missile as in the OTL but to wait in the 90s until AMRAAM is in service
the BVR equipped F-4s will be sufficent to deal with the Mig-23s
 
I suppose in theory the USN could continue development of their F111 ?

Perhaps in this time line the USN and General Dynamics sorts out the issues with the naval F111 and the USAF buys more F111f's.

I have this recurring dream about writing a TL where F-111B enters service and this, along with modernized Alaska-class BBG's, ends the Cold War earlier and results in joint US-EU-Russian Mars flight by the year 2000...
 
Without the F-14/15/18 developed, we might see the hi-performance F-4 versions, like the proposed F-4X and/or F-4 2000.
Another thing, USN-related, might be the much-compressed electronics suite installed in a F-4 and able to control AIM-54 against multiple targets, some time in mid-1980s.

USN might also jump at the YA-7F bandwagon, not having the F-18 on board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_YA-7F
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_YA-7F
 
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