WI: No Eurofighter Typhoon?

abc123

Banned
NothingNow said:
Possibly. If they don't go for F/A-18s, F-15Es, Rafales or Gripens, or the Tornado ADV.

It's not like the F-16 was really tapped out as a design in the early 90's. A Block 50/52+ Falcon would still be reasonably competitive till the Mid 2020's, and longer if it received further updates.
Meanwhile, the Gripen is small, cheap to operate, and pretty much everything the Luftwaffe was looking for, and could reasonably acquire under a situation where Germany pulled out of the Eurofighter program, and the Tornado ADV has the whole benefit of being a cheaper, proven option that still provides local jobs.
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Indeed, all viable options. But considering that Germans proposed to turn Typhoon into single engine fighter it seems tome that Gripen and F-16 are the most likely options.
 

Archibald

Banned
NothingNow said:
Possibly. If they don't go for F/A-18s, F-15Es, Rafales or Gripens, or the Tornado ADV.

It's not like the F-16 was really tapped out as a design in the early 90's. A Block 50/52+ Falcon would still be reasonably competitive till the Mid 2020's, and longer if it received further updates.
Meanwhile, the Gripen is small, cheap to operate, and pretty much everything the Luftwaffe was looking for, and could reasonably acquire under a situation where Germany pulled out of the Eurofighter program, and the Tornado ADV has the whole benefit of being a cheaper, proven option that still provides local jobs.
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In '92 the Typhoon was nearly killed by a cash strapped Germany. The alternatives were either a single engine, downrated machine; or F-18s or F-22s. Germany would certainly buy American in the wake of the F-104s and Phantoms.
 

abc123

Banned
gloster meteor mk3 said:
The Saudis would rather buy weapons than build them and if they did where are they going to build the factories and the runway the live in the middle of a FREAKING DESERT so no they would not go in with the build program.
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I don't know where they were planinng to build the factories ( Jedda or Dahran maybe? ) but in OTL contract for 72 Typhoons it was planned that 48 of them will be assembled in KSA. It didn't happen ( IMO because KSA has no technological level to do so ) but the rumors are that they are still intrested...
 

NothingNow

Banned
abc123 said:
Indeed, all viable options. But considering that Germans proposed to turn Typhoon into single engine fighter it seems tome that Gripen and F-16 are the most likely options.
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Yep. It'd really have been between the Gripen and F-16, and the Gripen was going to be the cheaper option up front and in the long run, even if it wasn't in service yet.
 

abc123

Banned
NothingNow said:
Yep. It'd really have been between the Gripen and F-16, and the Gripen was going to be the cheaper option up front and in the long run, even if it wasn't in service yet.
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Yep, but even with Cold war over, the Germans knew that USA still guarantees their security and the Sweden is not, so IMO F-16 would be the next fighter for the Luftwaffe, after Starfighter and Phantom that isn't surprising at all...
 

abc123

Banned
OK, so if Germany quits and the remaining three countries decide to go ahead and cover the expences, British should pay somewhere around 12,5 bln. USD for development.
That is possible OFC ( and British will get larger industrial cut ) let's remember that the French have payed entire development cost of the Rafale ( about 23 bln. USD ).

But I'm not sure that Italy and Spain would have the money ( or the will ) to buy it, especially after the end of Cold war and availability of cheaper US fighters ( Spain allready uses F-18, Italy leased F-16 while waiting for Typhoon )...
 
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Archibald

Banned
abc123 said:
Alternatives for who? Germany or UK?
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Germany - that's what they wanted, but of course all three other partners disagreed. They wanted twin engine US fighters - just like the Phantom had been. I don't know if the F-18 was the standard variant or the E/F.
 

sparky42

Archibald said:
Germany - that's what they wanted, but of course all three other partners disagreed. They wanted twin engine US fighters - just like the Phantom had been. I don't know if the F-18 was the standard variant or the E/F.
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Well the E/F wasn't going to make it's first flight till the mid 90's and didn't become operational in the USN till 99 so I doubt it would have been those. If German is backing out of 1 fighter development programme I can't see them choosing to go with another development programme.

Most likely the C/D variant looking at the timeframe.
 

Anime Ninja

If Britain could not build the Typhoon, I could see the F-18E/F program fast forwarded with BAE working on that. The expansion of the F-18 program with the FAST packs and the IR sensor might be added sooner. A lot of what we are seeing in the international road map for the F-18 might be rolled out in the late 90's. You would have a major push by the UK for Canada and Australia to look at replacing their F-18s in the early 2000's with the new "Euro-Hornet", a land based F-18E/F.
 
Simon

Simon

abc123 said:
Yep. Or some sort initial small-numbers order for C/D and larger numbers later for E/F. Or, if USN had few dozens A/Bs for rent until E/F enters service...
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If they can lock in a large enough future order McDonnell Douglas might be persuaded to lease them C/D variants to bridge the gap until the Super Hornet starts production and can be delivered.
 

abc123

Banned
Anime Ninja said:
If Britain could not build the Typhoon, I could see the F-18E/F program fast forwarded with BAE working on that. The expansion of the F-18 program with the FAST packs and the IR sensor might be added sooner. A lot of what we are seeing in the international road map for the F-18 might be rolled out in the late 90's. You would have a major push by the UK for Canada and Australia to look at replacing their F-18s in the early 2000's with the new "Euro-Hornet", a land based F-18E/F.
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Something like Advanced Super Hornet ( but earlier ) would be a great thing for RAF and RN...

BAE would suffer OFC ( but they will assemble them so they will get their share )...
 

Archibald

Banned
Anime Ninja said:
If Britain could not build the Typhoon, I could see the F-18E/F program fast forwarded with BAE working on that. The expansion of the F-18 program with the FAST packs and the IR sensor might be added sooner. A lot of what we are seeing in the international road map for the F-18 might be rolled out in the late 90's. You would have a major push by the UK for Canada and Australia to look at replacing their F-18s in the early 2000's with the new "Euro-Hornet", a land based F-18E/F.
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Hornet 2000: here we go again !
 

EAF602Whizz

Anime Ninja said:
If Britain could not build the Typhoon, I could see the F-18E/F program fast forwarded with BAE working on that. The expansion of the F-18 program with the FAST packs and the IR sensor might be added sooner. A lot of what we are seeing in the international road map for the F-18 might be rolled out in the late 90's. You would have a major push by the UK for Canada and Australia to look at replacing their F-18s in the early 2000's with the new "Euro-Hornet", a land based F-18E/F.
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This post seems to me the most likely outcome if Typhoon was completely cancelled. Spain and the UK go for the F18, Italy buys F16s. Not sure what the Germans would opt for. (they couldn't buy lots more MiG29s could they?)
Maybe the Jaguars, Harriers and Tornado ADVs last a bit longer with the RAF?;)
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

abc123 said:
Yep, but even with Cold war over, the Germans knew that USA still guarantees their security and the Sweden is not, so IMO F-16 would be the next fighter for the Luftwaffe, after Starfighter and Phantom that isn't surprising at all...
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Well, after the Sargfighter fiasco, between the original bribery scandal and the plane being repurposed to a rôle it wasnt designed for, I think Germany might well want to avoid American, other things being equal....
 

abc123

Banned
Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Well, after the Sargfighter fiasco, between the original bribery scandal and the plane being repurposed to a rôle it wasnt designed for, I think Germany might well want to avoid American, other things being equal....
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Some other countries used the Starfighter just fine...
Also, LW was AFAIK pretty happy with Phantoms.
 
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