In a scenario, inwhich Austria-Hungary mobilises according to Case R+B(Russia+Balkans), and therefore deploys the 2nd Army against Russia from the very beginning, what operational options does the K.u.K Army have, if the Russian 3rd and 8th Armies are stopped in East Galicia? How far North can the 1st and 4th Armies go without risking breaking contact with the other armies? What are some reasonable objectives? Is Ivangorod or even Warsaw in reach? What about a swing to the East against Kowel and Brest-Litovsk? How could the Germans adjust to the situation, if Tannenberg and Masurian Lakes go like OTL?

Bonus question: What if the Russian 5th Army is encircled and eliminated in the Battle of Komarow? How would it affect this scenario?

I'm eager to read your thoughts and ideas!

Edit: Accidentally wrote 5th Army instead of 4th.
 
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Wasn't there an issue OTL, where the Austrians dithered, deployed 25 miles behind the frontier then marched to the frontier, vs detraining at the frontier (there being a fair amount of march attrition). Perhaps that is avoided here.

I still think its best for the Austrians to wait on the defensive (with the extra forces) and just hold on to Galacia, avoiding the losses OTL, (including the blood winter in the Carpathians). Avoiding the loss of rail stock and disruption of agriculture in the region. Probably leads to a compromise Central Powers victory over all by 1916. The risk/reward seems out of place for a drive into Poland.
 
Wasn't there an issue OTL, where the Austrians dithered, deployed 25 miles behind the frontier then marched to the frontier, vs detraining at the frontier (there being a fair amount of march attrition). Perhaps that is avoided here.
Given, that the 3rd Army only encountered the Russians at Zlota Lipa , which is well within the borders of Galicia, that might had happened. If TTL the deployment is as close to the borders as possible, them maybe the Strypa or even the Sereth River is a plausible defensive position? Those are larger rivers compared to Gnila Lipa and Zlota Lipa, so they might prove to be better suited to help stopping the Russian advance.
I still think its best for the Austrians to wait on the defensive (with the extra forces) and just hold on to Galacia, avoiding the losses OTL, (including the blood winter in the Carpathians). Avoiding the loss of rail stock and disruption of agriculture in the region.
Even though that might be the safest approach, I don't think Conrad(, or most WW1 generals in general) could be expected to just sit around idly, when they could attack.


@wiking , I believe you might be familiar with the subject.
 

Deleted member 1487

In a scenario, inwhich Austria-Hungary mobilises according to Case R+B(Russia+Balkans), and therefore deploys the 2nd Army against Russia from the very beginning, what operational options does the K.u.K Army have, if the Russian 3rd and 8th Armies are stopped in East Galicia? How far North can the 1st and 5th Armies go without risking breaking contact with the other armies? What are some reasonable objectives? Is Ivangorod or even Warsaw in reach? What about a swing to the East against Kowel and Brest-Litovsk? How could the Germans adjust to the situation, if Tannenberg and Masurian Lakes go like OTL?

Bonus question: What if the Russian 5th Army is encircled and eliminated in the Battle of Komarow? How would it affect this scenario?

I'm eager to read your thoughts and ideas!
Assuming that the 2nd army is sent to Galicia first, it would play out similar to my Conrad Waits TL, which has that exact POD.
That would mean 3rd army doesn't implode fighting two Russian armies by themselves, so the A-H 4th Army then finishes off the Russian 5th at Komarow, because IOTL they only diverted from their destruction of the 5th army to secure their flank after the A-H 3rd army collapsed in East Galicia.

The A-H 1st army was getting checked as it was, so they won't really do anything different from IOTL, i.e. stalling out around Ivangrorod, they just won't have to retreat with the rest of the A-H as per OTL. But they were getting ground up in the attritional fighting they were engaged in and IIRC the Russian 9th army was coming down on them, so they might well have to retreat sooner rather than later anyway.

The A-H 5th would really only be able to advance into a vacuum once the Russian 5th is dealt with, which means they'd have to either turn on to East Galicia or help the 1st army to their left flank. My hunch is that they would have to turn to aid Brudermann's 3rd Army given his OTL performance against the Russian 3rd and 8th armies, as they had the best commanders in the Russian army.
 
Assuming that the 2nd army is sent to Galicia first, it would play out similar to my Conrad Waits TL, which has that exact POD.
Great TL, I was curious wether you had some reconsiderations since then or not:D
That would mean 3rd army doesn't implode fighting two Russian armies by themselves, so the A-H 4th Army then finishes off the Russian 5th at Komarow, because IOTL they only diverted from their destruction of the 5th army to secure their flank after the A-H 3rd army collapsed in East Galicia.
SO that means the destruction of the Russian 5th Army is mostly a given, if East Galicia holds out long enough?
The A-H 1st army was getting checked as it was, so they won't really do anything different from IOTL, i.e. stalling out around Ivangrorod, they just won't have to retreat with the rest of the A-H as per OTL.
Couldn't the A-H 4th Army force the Russian 4th Army to abandon Lublin by threatening their flank from the East? Or is that not feasible before the arrival of the Russian 9th? Or would taking and holding onto Lublin( and Kholm) have no advantages?
The A-H 5th would really only be able to advance into a vacuum once the Russian 5th is dealt with, which means they'd have to either turn on to East Galicia or help the 1st army to their left flank.
Sorry, I meant the 4th Army, the 5th is supposed to be on the Balkans afterall.
My hunch is that they would have to turn to aid Brudermann's 3rd Army given his OTL performance against the Russian 3rd and 8th armies, as they had the best commanders in the Russian army.
This could be done by the 4th Army too right? Could they cross the Bug River to threaten the Russian 3rd from the North? Obviously in such case, the 1st Army would be left alone, so it definitely wold have to retreat, when they face both the Russian 4t and 9th Armies, right?
 
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Deleted member 1487

Great TL, I was curious wether you had some reconsiderations since then or not:D
Not really no.

SO that means the destruction of the Russian 5th Army is mostly a given, if East Galicia holds out long enough?
From my read of the situation yes. Of course that was informed by Auffenberg's post-war memoir, which may or may not be accurate about his thinking at the time.

Couldn't the A-H 4th Army force the Russian 4th Army to abandon Lublin by threatening their flank from the East? Or is that not feasible before the arrival of the Russian 9th? Or would taking and holding onto Lublin( and Kholm) have no advantages?
Depends on what is going on in East Galicia. I'm of the mind that Brudermann's 3rd Army would be in trouble and need 4th Army help more than 1st army.
IIRC the Russian 9th army got involved because of how far and fast the AH 1st army moved, which sucked in 9th army around Lublin. That allowed the Russian counteroffensive that started slowly pushing the Austro-German forces on the Vistula back.

They weren't in a position to even take Lublin due to the Russian 9th army.

This could be done by the 4th Army too right? Could they cross the Bug River to threaten the Russian 3rd from the North? Obviously in such case, the 1st Army would be left alone, so it definitely wold have to retreat, when they face both the Russian 4t and 9th Armies, right?
Correct and per my TL.
 
Correct and per my TL.
Your TL also featured a German failure against Ivangorod and Warsaw, right? What do you think, could a success had been achieve-able, if say there would had been a new Austro-Hungarian army created from a reinfored Kummer Group? This new Austro Hungarian 7th(?) Army could had been sent against Ivangorod, while the entire German 9th Army could had focused on Warsaw.
 

Deleted member 1487

Your TL also featured a German failure against Ivangorod and Warsaw, right? What do you think, could a success had been achieve-able, if say there would had been a new Austro-Hungarian army created from a reinfored Kummer Group? This new Austro Hungarian 7th(?) Army could had been sent against Ivangorod, while the entire German 9th Army could had focused on Warsaw.
The Kummer Group was a vital component of 1st Army's forces fighting near Lublin. It wasn't in a position to really be reinforced into a separate army at the time, especially given the relative dearth of A-H extra corps or divisions to reinforce it with.
 
The Kummer Group was a vital component of 1st Army's forces fighting near Lublin. It wasn't in a position to really be reinforced into a separate army at the time, especially given the relative dearth of A-H extra corps or divisions to reinforce it with.
I was of the assumption, that the Kummer Group was significantly to the West, relatively far from the 1st Army, atleast IOTL. Wasn't their main objectives to guard the area of Cracow and Upper Silesia? I might had missed it, but is it not the case in your TL?
 

Deleted member 1487

I was of the assumption, that the Kummer Group was significantly to the West, relatively far from the 1st Army, atleast IOTL. Wasn't their main objectives to guard the area of Cracow and Upper Silesia? I might had missed it, but is it not the case in your TL?
They basically advanced alongside the 1st army and got stuck in with them on the west bank of the Vistula during the Lublin fighting.
 
They basically advanced alongside the 1st army and got stuck in with them on the west bank of the Vistula during the Lublin fighting.
Oh, I see. although, couldn't the group be spared from action there, if the Russian 9th, instead of joining the Russian 4th against the A-H 1st, is redirected to check the A-H 4th Army?
 
Would be really nice to see a TL based on this POD, A-H Monarchy is really underrepresented in regards to TLs, not to mention too often underestimated.

Though, I must admit I really find it enjoyable seeing just how different Slavic languages are still very similar to each other. Gnila Lipa means the same in my language, though one does wonder why would someone name a river after a Rotten Linden tree.
 

Deleted member 1487

Oh, I see. although, couldn't the group be spared from action there, if the Russian 9th, instead of joining the Russian 4th against the A-H 1st, is redirected to check the A-H 4th Army?
The Russian 9th couldn't stay out of the fight against the 1st Army because they were still mobilizing when the fighting started to push into their area and to save their own 4th army, which was getting whipped, it needed to jump in. That in turn sucked in the Kummer Group to keep the 1st Army from being totally outnumbered.
 
@Triune Kingdom
You can always reread @wiking 's old TL:

Thanks, but I already did. It was a very enjoable read, and it did made me read up a bit more on the A-H in general, as well as the Eastern Front in WW1. Do you perhaps know of any other A-H related TLs that you would reccomend?
 
Thanks, but I already did. It was a very enjoable read, and it did made me read up a bit more on the A-H in general, as well as the Eastern Front in WW1. Do you perhaps know of any other A-H related TLs that you would reccomend?
I would say my own, but I never posted it, and I keep rewriting it constantly "^^
Otherwise nothing comes to mind at the moment. I'm sure there are some though.
 
The Russian 9th couldn't stay out of the fight against the 1st Army because they were still mobilizing when the fighting started to push into their area and to save their own 4th army, which was getting whipped, it needed to jump in. That in turn sucked in the Kummer Group to keep the 1st Army from being totally outnumbered.
Then if it weren't for the struggling of Brudermann's forces, and despite the Russian 9th Army's presence, couldn't the A-H forces overwhelm the Russian forces with the combined strength of the Kummer Group, the 1st and 4th Armies? Kummer could secure the left flank, 1st Army in the center, while 4th Army could try to flank the Russians on the right. Wouldn't the Russians withdraw towards Ivangorod in such situation? That could make the assault on Ivangorod in October more favourable to the Central Powers, maybe.
 

Deleted member 1487

Then if it weren't for the struggling of Brudermann's forces, and despite the Russian 9th Army's presence, couldn't the A-H forces overwhelm the Russian forces with the combined strength of the Kummer Group, the 1st and 4th Armies? Kummer could secure the left flank, 1st Army in the center, while 4th Army could try to flank the Russians on the right. Wouldn't the Russians withdraw towards Ivangorod in such situation? That could make the assault on Ivangorod in October more favourable to the Central Powers, maybe.
Sure if they even just combined 1st and 4th army. Problem is what is going on in East Galicia that would require the attention of 4th army.
The problem with assaulting Ivanogorod is that it was so heavily fortified and with field army support would be really hard to take especially given the OTL weather in February.
 
Sure if they even just combined 1st and 4th army. Problem is what is going on in East Galicia that would require the attention of 4th army.
The problem with assaulting Ivanogorod is that it was so heavily fortified and with field army support would be really hard to take especially given the OTL weather in February.
I see. The reason I'm asking so adamantly about this, because in my TL, which I mentioned to @Triune Kingdom , there are actually 5 A-H armies present in Galicia at the start of the war. Two marches North, two are in East Galicia and there's a fifth linking them. That's why I'm asking about the opportunities in Poland and am a bit dismissive about the matters in East Galicia. Sorry for not specifying, but I wanted to avoid getting replies screaming butterlies, spacebats and such.
 
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