WI: No destruction of the Second Temple

Just to through some background in the discussion: while historical demographics are a chronic debating point, given some data we do have from 1st and 2nd centuries CE, you are looking at 5-10% of the total Imperial population, higher of course in the Eastern provinces. Without the subsequent Judeo-Roman wars, those numbers and concentrations are likely to continue.

Could I get a source on that? I believe you, I'd just like to see what source it is that gives such particular demographic data for the ancient period.

Woukd that means that Hellenic Judaism doesn't doe out? It was a major religion in the eastern Mediterranean , so maybe it instead of Christianity becomes a major religion of the late RE?

I think the issue is that, unless it does away with circumcision (not gonna happen) it simply can't attract enough converts.
 

Marc

Donor
Could I get a source on that? I believe you, I'd just like to see what source it is that gives such particular demographic data for the ancient period.



I think the issue is that, unless it does away with circumcision (not gonna happen) it simply can't attract enough converts.

The Jewish Encyclopaedia has a good basic summary of historical demographics for Jews, only modestly off since its publication way back in 1905.
(I own a set, along with my cherished for the quality of the writing 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - both from a library closing sale some decades ago)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13992-statistics#anchor1
 
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Marc

Donor
Islam requires circumcision. It really is less of issue that many might think - rites of passage are part of the classic era's culture, as now.[/QUOTE]
 
Islam requires circumcision. It really is less of issue that many might think - rites of passage are part of the classic era's culture, as now.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but Hellenistic cultures found that particular rite quite abhorrant, and multiple Hellenistic rulers tried to ban it. Islam had the advantage of being relatively similar to the predominant religion of the initial areas it was proselytising in, and afterwards had critical mass. Plus, y'know, if you weren't one of the people of the book it was usually convert or die.
 
Wasn't the reason for the revolt that the Romans demanded the treasures of the Temple? Quite a bit of money, considering the millions of Jews needing to send it over each year. They accumulated even more due to people needing to pay it in a certain unused type of currency, meaning money changers on the Temple could charge highly. I am unsure if it is confirmed the Priests got a cut. Anyways, wouldn't the Romans take the Temple for themselves? They did think the god of the Jews was Saturn (or said he was) and they did try making the city be dedicated to Jupiter after expelling the Jews. I did read before that the Romans had an easier time of things because there were four factions in Jerusalem fighting each other, rather than uniting and defending the highly defensible city. I say you need to find acceptable collaborating groups who will make the Romans decide not to enslave or expel the nearly the entire provincial population. Not going to be easy, considering the emptying of the coffers of the Temple.
 
Sort of--the Roman Procurator was essentially stealing the temple goods and the Jews started rioting over the matter. Things really got out of hand when Florus crucified Roman citizens over the issue. If you wanted a POD that averts the revolt in its entirety, rather than just the Temple's destruction, Cestius Gallus intervening with Florus in favor of the Jews might well do the trick.
 
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I suspect that this will lead to Judaism being much less of a "special" religion, so to speak. With - as you note - a Sadducee leadership and a well-defined national center, I think it'll end up as a relatively minor national religion. Combine that with the wave of religious unrest that is going to affect the Roman Empire sooner or later (Christianity or no), and Judaism seems likely to be a peculiar, but nonetheless thoroughly integrated member of a pan-Mediterranean religious system - comparable to Lingayatism in Hinduism. Jews are still useful middlemen in Mesopotamia and Arabia, but they don't have any special reason to move en masse like they did IOTL - and they'll always feel an allegiance to Jerusalem and the Temple.

Christianity is screwed, at least for Paul's gentile outreach plan. A more confident and cohesive Jerusalem is going to be a focal point for the cult it spawned, and no matter how hard Peter or Paul try, Ebionism is going to be the most natural conclusion. Consider also how much less authority Christianity will have, among Jews or Romans, without a little Apocalypse happening right after its appearance. No reason to discard the idea of a prophetic leader and deified mankind in general (c.f. Buddhism), but it will probably come from a Hellenic or Persian mindset rather than an Abrahamic one - and therefore much less anxiety about idolatry and polytheism.

Islam is, of course, butterflied away. The Arabian Peninsula is still going to have an economic crisis around the 6th-8th centuries, but that doesn't necessitate a political-religious movement. More likely is a time of massive infighting, maybe an Arabian conquest of nearby areas, but nothing anywhere close to the scale we saw OTL.

I love these kind of WIs.

I don't know about this. A standing temple doesn't negate the Jewish Diaspora that already exists at that point in the Roman world for one and given the extremely exclusionary pillars of Judaism I cannot see how it would integrate itself further into the wider Mediteranean religious world.

Undoubtedly it would have an impact on Christianity but I personally see the impact being the exact opposite of what you describe. I think a more cohesive Jewish opposition would antagonize the progressive elements of early Christianity into withdrawing further away from the Old Testament so to speak. Speaking in purely secular terms Christianity can be seen as an offshoot of Hellenistic Judaism with its more cosmopolitan aspects, the centralized and conservative Jewish leadership as was in Jerusalem at the time would balk at these tendencies thus forcing out the early Christians.

But I agree, this sort of PoD is fascinating and truthfully has many far reaching and wildly different paths to branch out to.
 
Undoubtedly it would have an impact on Christianity but I personally see the impact being the exact opposite of what you describe. I think a more cohesive Jewish opposition would antagonize the progressive elements of early Christianity into withdrawing further away from the Old Testament so to speak. Speaking in purely secular terms Christianity can be seen as an offshoot of Hellenistic Judaism with its more cosmopolitan aspects, the centralized and conservative Jewish leadership as was in Jerusalem at the time would balk at these tendencies thus forcing out the early Christians.

Early Christianity was incredibly millenarian and saw the end times immanently; seeing the destruction of the Temple persuaded even the Jews within the movement that the time has come to abandon the Law. Without this the movement is smaller/more divided. While it could in theory overcome this, IMO it does not do so in time to catch up to the Cult of Isis.
 
Could Early Christianity have diverged even further into becoming a different (possibly even diasporic) religion altogether, ending up Anti-Judaic along similar lines to Marcionism/Gnosticism as well as Manichaeism and Mandaeism?
 
I think some people are underestimating the level of what can only be called ethnoreligious nationalism in Judea - the Temple being spared and the Sadducees reinstated further reinforces the idea that the Zealots must revolt until foreign influence is removed. Despite the fall from grace of the rigorous and Zealot-inclined House of Shammai OTL, the flames of War eventually erupted again.

I think there would still be another major-scale uprising, and that the real consequence is just a more discredited Temple than OTL, as It becomes more and more synonimous with external suzerainty. TTL maybe even the Ultra-Orthodox don't feel like getting that Third Temple done if destroyed despite very likely not being a Mosque in there.
 
I think some people are underestimating the level of what can only be called ethnoreligious nationalism in Judea - the Temple being spared and the Sadducees reinstated further reinforces the idea that the Zealots must revolt until foreign influence is removed. Despite the fall from grace of the rigorous and Zealot-inclined House of Shammai OTL, the flames of War eventually erupted again.

I think there would still be another major-scale uprising, and that the real consequence is just a more discredited Temple than OTL, as It becomes more and more synonimous with external suzerainty. TTL maybe even the Ultra-Orthodox don't feel like getting that Third Temple done if destroyed despite very likely not being a Mosque in there.

Indeed they did. And the Romans crushed them.

If the city of Jerusalem and the Temple are pro-Roman, the Romans aren't going to end the Sadducees, just a more rural insurrection (and don't tell me the Maccabees are a reason why the Romans would lose; the Roman state would be much more able to divide the Jews and *not* take actions to piss off all of them, and in any case there's an argument to be made that it was Roman support that led to the Maccabee's success). Pretty quickly people are going to see the logic that the Zealots are getting themselves killed fighting a regime that, at the end of the day, is pretty accepting of their religious practices. Thus moderate, pro-Roman Judaism ultimately will win out.

And as for the issue of monotheism and the perennial issue of the Jews refusing to sacrifice to the Imperial Genius, I could easily see a situation emerge where sacrifices are given to HaShem for the good health of the Emperor and Empire filling the same role.

And crazy demi-TL idea I just thought of: WI in alt-Crisis of 3rd Cent. a Judeo-Roman empire centered on Jerusalem rather than a Palmyrene one emerges in the east? Is that even possible?
 
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