WI no collectivization in the Soviet Union?

Toraach

Banned
What if Stalin didn't collectivize the soviet agriculture? How might have it changed this country? What about agricultural productions? Famines?


Any analogy which is helpful I see in Poland, the only european country in the Soviet sphere, which didn't have collectivization. No collectivization in Poland and also a state ban for owning more than 20hectares of private land(during the People's Republic), "helped" to preserve an inefective structure of small family farms, instead of a slow evolution to bigger more effective private farms. Also a specifics of a socialist economy in Poland with a high prices for agriculture products resulted in a creation of a group called "chłoporobotnicy" which might be translated as "peasant-workers". People who had a job somewhere in the industry or services, but also still owned their small family farms, so they had two sources of income. It was possible also because Poland has been relativly evenly populated with towns and cities evenly placed in most of her area. I think also that this development of a polish specifics caused a yet another thing. Poland has the fourth lowest urbanization rate in the EU 61%. Many people who in other situations would have seeked their future in cities and towns, in the People's Republic of Poland didn't have to, thanks to a possibility of a living as a "chłoporobotnik", than facing an unknown in the industrial cities. But the Soviet Union was much bigger and diverse country, so that's probably a much diffrent story what might have happeden in the SU.
 
What if Stalin didn't collectivize the soviet agriculture? How might have it changed this country? What about agricultural productions? Famines? . . .
I think it makes a big difference. Without collectivization, we avoid some of the worst, nastiest aspects of Soviet socialism. And we might get more of the better aspects such as Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP)

Of course to do this, we might need Lenin living longer, or someone else taking over other than Stalin, or maybe, maybe a relatively unified Politburo which stands up to Stalin that we're not going to do collectivization, and this evolves to a strong Politburo-weak chairman system. Might be enough. I mean, Stalin really was a nut and I think meets the clinical definition of a sociopath.

And if Stalin doesn't have the power to do this, he probably can't pull off the Holodomor in which an existing famine was intentionally focused on the Ukraine. Food items were taken from households in the Ukraine, and people were not allowed to leave the Ukraine.
 
Any analogy which is helpful I see in Poland

Now that is quite interesting. I didn't know this about Poland!

Of course to do this, we might need Lenin living longer, or someone else taking over other than Stalin, or maybe, maybe a relatively unified Politburo which stands up to Stalin that we're not going to do collectivization, and this evolves to a strong Politburo-weak chairman system. Might be enough. I mean, Stalin really was a nut and I think meets the clinical definition of a sociopath.

Stalin was definitely paranoid. But I am not sure how many people would be able to avoid being paranoid in the same situation. If you've not read Kotkin's biographies of Stalin or listened to any of his talks on Stalin I very much recommend his work. It certainly makes a compelling argument that there wasn't anything inherently broken about Stalin - but rather he was a human being with too much power and too much belief in his ideas.

As to what might happen if the rest of the Politburo told Stalin "no" about Collectivization - I don't think it would be the change you think. Stalin does not seem to have forced through measures that were strongly opposed by the Politburo. So if the Politburo opposed him and remained opposed to him over Collectivization... Well, he may well have just focused on other priorities. And I think to get a strong Politburo and a weak Stalin you need to radically change the personalities involved or have Stalin not be general secretary of the Party either because Lenin never gives him the job or the Politburo accepts his resignation over the supposed letter of criticism Lenin wrote.

he probably can't pull off the Holodomor in which an existing famine was intentionally focused on the Ukraine

The Holodomor also devastated southern Russia.

What if Stalin didn't collectivize the soviet agriculture? How might have it changed this country? What about agricultural productions? Famines?

Firstly, there's the question of how we avoid Collectivization. Let's say that Bukharin manages to convince Stalin that the time is not yet and that Collectivization should remain a voluntary process until the country is more prepared (so some point in the 40s). Of course, before that can happen, WW2 happens, and in the violence and then the painful reconstruction afterwards, Stalin never does feel the time is right, and after he is dead, his successors are too cautious to push the policy through, even though it remains a goal of the Party in theory.

Potentially, this is a colossal change. It's hard to say exactly however, since so much information is still hidden in those parts of the former Soviet archives that are still secret. If indeed the full story ever was committed to paper.

Firstly, it's important to recognize that no Collectivization does not necessarily mean no de-Kulakization. There was real anti-Kulak sentiment among the bulk of the peasantry (who had not done so well during the NEP) and the anti-Kulak campaign may well have partially been aimed at increasing support for the Party among the peasants by hammering down the "sticking out nails" that were irritating their communities. Similarly, the Soviet regime is still likely to be cracking down on what they termed "economic criminals" - which could either be unscrupulous profiteers or honest businessmen who happened to get on the wrong side of their communities or the local Party (a campaign which hit the Jewish community in the Soviet Union hard) and the Soviet regime is still likely to engaged in forced resettlement of groups.

Secondly, even without Collectivization, there is still likely to be a famine due to the poor infrastructure in the country and due to several years in a row of bad weather. Likely it kills only thousands or low hundreds of thousands of people however.

Thirdly, if Allen is right in his book Farm to Factory, a continuing NEP means slower growth rates in the early 30s, but faster growth in the late 30s, meaning the USSR would be only slightly behind the OTL USSR in terms of industrial development in 1941. Likely that means that the Red Army can't get as many weapons in the mid 30s as OTL, which could be a blessing in disguise given the rapid changes of military technology in the 30s. Or it could lead to the Red Army being just weak enough compared to OTL that the Germans can do that little bit better during Barbarossa... Where that goes is hard to predict.

Fourthly, Stalin seems to have been really hurt by how much criticism he got for seeing Collectivization through - he'd taken the universally agreed policy of the Bolsheviks and implemented it for the good of the people. And in return he got flak from the Party and unrest in the general population seems to have shot up. And possibly, elements of the military were so horrified that they began considering a coup. It may well be (though all the evidence we have is circumstantial, if this can be proven definitively, it can only be done with access to the KGBs internal security archives) that the backlash to Collectivization directly caused the Purges - at least the Purges as we know them. As we know, the Purges gutted the Red Army, the Old Bolsheviks, the rank and file of the Party itself and the general population. It was a disaster for the country and especially the Party itself, and it did much to horrify and repel foreign observers - directly contributing to the Soviet diplomatic isolation in the late 30s, which of course led to the Hitler-Stalin pact of 1939. We can't say for sure, but it is very possible that no Collectivization would mean no Purges (though lesser purges where the purged are fired, not murdered, as Lenin did after the end of the Civil War and systemic violence like the anti-Kulak campaign are still very likely to continue through the 30s and 40s), a stronger Red Army, no Commissars crippling the ability of army officers to act decisively, a stronger more ideologically diverse Party, and a stronger population.

Fithly... I started off saying that Collectivization could be put off until the mid-40s and rendered moot by WW2... But what if the lack of Purges means WW2 is avoided? What if the Soviet Union becomes an ally of Britain and France in the late 30s and the trio contain the forces of Nazism successfully without a major war? Well... We may have just postponed Collectivization. Even with the NEP proving fairly successful as an interim measure, no Bolshevik, not even Bukharin, wanted to keep the NEP going forever. And I am just not aware of an alternative they discussed other than Collectivization like that in OTL. It may be that postponing it means the worst of it is avoided though - if Collectivization is done during good years, and at a time when the USSR has better transport networks, greater wealth, better foreign relations and greater institutional strength... Well. The exact same policy aims, enacted with the exact same ruthlessness, might still produce radically different outcomes. But maybe the Collectivization campaign happens during bad years as it did in OTL, just later on, and millions still die.

My gut feeling is that things go much, much better for the Soviet Union if there is no forced Collectivization. And things are much better for the rest of the world too. But there are ways that worse outcomes or indifferent outcomes could occur as well.

As far as agricultural production and famine... I don't see there being much difference in overall agricultural output, other than the Soviets avoiding the artificial depression that Collectivization caused. Soviet farms may be less labour efficient and Soviet cities more labour efficient through the 30s and the 40s (due to more people staying on the land for longer). There will be a famine in the early 30s, but it would be much less severe. Depending on how WW2 goes, if it goes at all, there may be another famine in the late 40s.

fasquardon
 
How Stalin Hid Ukraine's Famine From the World

The Atlantic, Anne Applebaum, Oct. 13, 2017.
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...e-anne-applebaum-ukraine-soviet-union/542610/

' . . . At the height of the crisis, organized teams of policemen and local Party activists, motivated by hunger, fear, and a decade of hateful propaganda, entered peasant households and took everything edible: potatoes, beets, squash, beans, peas, and farm animals. At the same time, a cordon was drawn around the Ukrainian republic to prevent escape. The result was a catastrophe: At least 5 million people perished of hunger all across the Soviet Union. Among them were nearly 4 million Ukrainians . . . '
And genocide is often committed along these same lines by manipulating a pre-existing famine.
 
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. . . If you've not read Kotkin's biographies of Stalin or listened to any of his talks on Stalin I very much recommend his work. It certainly makes a compelling argument that there wasn't anything inherently broken about Stalin - but rather he was a human being with too much power and too much belief in his ideas. . .
okay, I can concede that Stalin was a human being, but that's about the most I can concede. He killed people he personally knew in order to "prove" that he was right. If that's not sociopathic behavior, then I'm badly misunderstanding the term. Now, he also enacted state policy to kill large numbers of people defined as "others," but that, sadly and tragically, is relatively normal behavior and has echoed all through human history.

Taking it another level, some people who are sociopathic can have productive lives, and I'm thinking not just of the stereotypical examples such as sports coach, business executive, or high-powered surgeon. I bet if we look hard enough, we can find examples of yes, people who are wired up differently so that they just don't have much empathy, but all the same, they are successful in such non-stereotypical fields as school teacher, sales professional, auto mechanic, etc, etc.
 
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. . . My gut feeling is that things go much, much better for the Soviet Union if there is no forced Collectivization. And things are much better for the rest of the world too. But there are ways that worse outcomes or indifferent outcomes could occur as well. . .
The problem is, stories about utopia are boring.

The British philosopher Jeremy Bentham said something like, Wars and storms are best to read about, but peace and calms are usually better to live through and actually experience! And then there are claims that the phrase "Interesting Times" is a Chinese curse. This might be an urban legend of the business management lecture circuit, but it's clever and smart none the less.

So, fiction which starts with a big shiny improvement, but then something dark behind it?
 
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And genocide is often committed along these same lines by manipulating a pre-existing famine.

I am pretty sure that all the measures you quote happened in the Russian and Kazakh parts of the famine zone - travel was restricted in Russia and Kazakhstan also, with inter-regional travel without valid papers being punished by gulag time (almost certain death for people weakened by famine).

And the total death toll of the famine was around 7 million with, as you say, around about 4 million dying in the Ukraine.

So I really don't buy the idea that it was targeted on Ukraine. It was worst there for sure, but the awfulness didn't end at political boundaries.

And then there are claims that the phrase "Interesting Times" is a Chinese curse.

I have heard that it was really coined by the British. No idea if that's true... If I were to guess I'd bet that a Californian had coined it.

The problem is, stories about utopia are boring.

The British philosopher Jeremy Bentham said something like, Wars and storms are best to read about, but peace and calms are usually better to live through and actually experience! And then there are claims that the phrase "Interesting Times" is a Chinese curse. This might be an urban legend of the business management lecture circuit, but it's clever and smart none the less.

So, a big shiny improvement, but then something dark behind it.

Well, depending on how the cold war goes, "the world is a better place in 1950" might not result in "the world is a better place in 2000".

fasquardon
 
. . . So I really don't buy the idea that it was targeted on Ukraine. It was worst there for sure, but the awfulness didn't end at political boundaries. . .
From what I've read, I do buy the idea that the Soviets targeted the famine on the Ukraine. Such as The Atlantic article above, which says 4 million dead in the Ukraine and 1 million in the rest of Russia.

Or, even if it's 3 million in the rest of Russia as you say, and I mourn for each and every one and wish we had developed a better world long ago, it still sounds like targeting of the Ukraine.
 
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From what I've read, I do buy the idea that the Soviets targeted the famine on the Ukraine. Such as The Atlantic article above, which says 4 million dead in the Ukraine and 1 million in the rest of Russia.

Or, even if it's 3 million in the rest of Russia as you say, and I mourn for each and every one and wish we had developed a better world long ago, it still sounds like targeting of the Ukraine.
It makes more sense to say that the relatively prosperous peasant in the major wheat producing regions were targeted, since there were far more inclined to resist collectivization. Ukraine was the grain basket of the USSR along with the Kuban and the North Caucasus, but had a substantially bigger population, so naturally it had the greatest number of deaths. Looking at the proportion of deaths shows however that it is dubious to talk of Ukraine being targeted: there were Russian regions with higher deaths tolls than in some regions of Ukraine.
 
Firstly, it's important to recognize that no Collectivization does not necessarily mean no de-Kulakization. There was real anti-Kulak sentiment among the bulk of the peasantry (who had not done so well during the NEP) and the anti-Kulak campaign may well have partially been aimed at increasing support for the Party among the peasants by hammering down the "sticking out nails" that were irritating their communities. Similarly, the Soviet regime is still likely to be cracking down on what they termed "economic criminals" - which could either be unscrupulous profiteers or honest businessmen who happened to get on the wrong side of their communities or the local Party (a campaign which hit the Jewish community in the Soviet Union hard) and the Soviet regime is still likely to engaged in forced resettlement of groups.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this claim, considering that much of the anti-Kulak sentiment was fanned by the Soviet government to facilitate the anti-Kulak campaign (which was meant to oppress opposition against collectivization). In fact, the very term Kulak had been reinvented with a very different meaning to its pre-1917 usage for this campaign. While there was difference between prosperity achieved under the NEP in rural areas, it was not even closely comparable to the situation before 1917 or in the vast majority of other countries.
 
Whatever the means and reasons, Ukrainians in the USSR had practically disappeared outside of the Ukraine SSR by 1979.



Ethnographic map of the USSR 1930:
etnografinen__.jpg



Ethnographic map of the USSR 1979:

1200px-Map_of_the_ethnic_groups_living_in_the_Soviet_Union.jpg



Gotta say that it's pretty suspicious how all the Ukrainians left the Kuban region. It could have been the Holodomor, or the population movements at the end of WW2.
 
Let's go.

What if Stalin didn't collectivize the soviet agriculture?

But he didn't. Voluntary collectivisation began early in the civil war and continued in areas where the revolution continued despite bolshevisation. Additionally, there were Party structure supported voluntary collectives and state collectives. Many of these collectives were already "proletarian" in the relations, wage based rather than subsistence / sale based, and often in "industrial" agriculture rather than subsistence agriculture. In contrast the NEP villages were subsistence, and the standard peasant had reduced their production in favour of leisure as the Tzarist taxes and landlordism lifted off their back. In addition the NEP distribution networks were focused on "Kulaks" in the sense of partly capitalist or small capitalist logistic networks which bound the NEP village to the urban railheads. More on this problem later.

And of course Stalin was a leading party functionary. He is known from committee records to have kept silent and spoken last, following or "tail-ending" in party parlance the mood in the room, the party, and the industrial working class. Stalin tail-ended the industrial working class on the "Ural-Siberian method" of forced extraction from villages in favour of industrial proletarian consumption, and he tail ended the "ultras" amongst the urban working class and party in terms of forced collectivisation.

Many people who in other situations would have seeked their future in cities and towns, in the People's Republic of Poland didn't have to, thanks to a possibility of a living as a "chłoporobotnik", than facing an unknown in the industrial cities. But the Soviet Union was much bigger and diverse country, so that's probably a much diffrent story what might have happeden in the SU.

In party, and unfortunately, yes. The NEP period didn't result in an organic capitalist growth of industries serving end consumption, but rather the limping on of Tzarist industries. Much like the peasants, semi-peasants and rural proletarians had reduced production as taxation lifted, the urban proletariat had reduced productivity as wages collapsed during the war, war-communism and NEP. Motivating the urban working class through consumer goods proved impossible. Luxury demands like meat, canned food and fabrics weren't in production, due to low productivity in industrial agriculture. This economic trap is often referred to as the scissors crisis, where rural and urban productivity collapse as there wasn't a growth structure that motivated both.

Without collectivization, we avoid some of the worst, nastiest aspects of Soviet socialism. […]
And if Stalin doesn't have the power to do this, he probably can't pull off the Holodomor in which an existing famine was intentionally focused on the Ukraine. Food items were taken from households in the Ukraine, and people were not allowed to leave the Ukraine.

Food was taken from households throughout the period, under the Ural-Siberian method noted above. I've read a peer-reviewed archival historical piece on the Politbureau's response to famine in Ukraine and other areas of the Soviet Union, and food relief was attempted as soon as it came to the attention of the central authorities. Which never got further than the railheads. Because the NEPmen and Kulaks who provided the railhead to village logistic methods were eliminated. The party and state are still culpable, but with a different set of charges.

Let's say that Bukharin manages to convince Stalin that the time is not yet and that Collectivization should remain a voluntary process

Stalin and Bukharin are unseated in the Pb by members who tail-end the Ural-Siberian method, OR industrial workers overthrow the party and implement forced collectivisation.

Firstly, it's important to recognize that no Collectivization does not necessarily mean no de-Kulakization.

Secondly, even without Collectivization, there is still likely to be a famine due to the poor infrastructure in the country and due to several years in a row of bad weather. Likely it kills only thousands or low hundreds of thousands of people however.

Which will eliminate the rural logistics networks, which will leave areas in famine unable to be relieved by central assets, which will lead to mass famines during agricultural crises. And the seizures by urban workers taking the initiative will continue without collectivisation. Perhaps not as definitively, and the increased productivity from the NEP village will certainly leave more cushion than the kholkoz's lack of reserves.

Thirdly, if Allen is right in his book Farm to Factory, a continuing NEP means slower growth rates in the early 30s, but faster growth in the late 30s

The "new" urban working class forced off the farms tended to have a higher level of productivity, due to empty guts and a lack of urban class war experience.

As far as agricultural production and famine... I don't see there being much difference in overall agricultural output

I have to really strongly disagree. NEP villagers produced for personal consumption with an unlimited cap on their leisure and pleasure. In contrast the kholkoz restricted personal production for pleasure. It depends on whether the NEPmen or the industrial workers win the forced extraction issue?

And genocide is often committed along these same lines by manipulating a pre-existing famine.

Or simply by having created the administrative apparatus that is incapable of ameliorating famine, and which removed pre-existing methods of famine amelioriation thus taking responsibility for such amelioration.

I'm somewhat skeptical about this claim, considering that much of the anti-Kulak sentiment was fanned by the Soviet government to facilitate the anti-Kulak campaign (which was meant to oppress opposition against collectivization). In fact, the very term Kulak had been reinvented with a very different meaning to its pre-1917 usage for this campaign. While there was difference between prosperity achieved under the NEP in rural areas, it was not even closely comparable to the situation before 1917 or in the vast majority of other countries.

It also helps that the industrial workers and low level party functionaries engaged in anti-Kulak and forced collectivisation campaigns couldn't tell a Kulak from a rich peasant from a middling peasant from a peasant at all. Hell, most of the party systematically avoided the issue of the rural proletariat entirely.

yours,
Sam R.
 
Whatever the means and reasons, Ukrainians in the USSR had practically disappeared outside of the Ukraine SSR by 1979.

Ethnographic map of the USSR 197
Gotta say that it's pretty suspicious how all the Ukrainians left the Kuban region. It could have been the Holodomor, or the population movements at the end of WW2.
The people who identified as Ukrainians or rather their descendants are still there. They simply stopped identifying as Ukrainians. In fact, they only started "identifying" as Ukrainians during the 1926 census, where the census takers were instructed to record people not by self-determination but by ancestry. In the unfinished 1920 census which did not have such requirements, Russians were the great majority in the Kuban.

The rest of the decline of the Ukrainian population in the RSFSR can be attributed to the natural process of assimilation of the Ukrainians into the dominant Russian population, an extremely similar ethnic group.
 
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. . . I've read a peer-reviewed archival historical piece on the Politbureau's response to famine in Ukraine and other areas of the Soviet Union, and food relief was attempted as soon as it came to the attention of the central authorities. Which never got further than the railheads. Because the NEPmen and Kulaks who provided the railhead to village logistic methods were eliminated. The party and state are still culpable, but with a different set of charges. . .
Well, first lesson I draw, that even if you're a revolutionary, think in terms of evolution and transition. Just like relief pitching is awfully important in baseball, the transition is awfully important in politics and economics.

And very seriously, governments often cloak genocides as merely passive means, when it's anything but. This was the case, for example, with the 1971 Bengali genocide which West Pakistan committed in what would become Bangladesh.

Okay, I'm willing to take a look at your peer-reviewed source, but I've read other sources which say that the Soviets damn well did target the Ukrainians including a multi-year propaganda campaign which began in the 1920s which presented the Ukrainians as the bad guys and "other. " And per The Atlantic article above, the Soviets prevented people from leaving the Ukraine.
 
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Well, first lesson I draw, that even if you're a revolutionary, think in terms of evolution and transition. Just like relief pitching is awfully important in baseball, the transition is awfully important in politics and economics.

Or more sadistically, purported "Marxist" revolutionaries ought to master logistics, statistics, quantity estimation, input-output tables, scope of control—let alone proletarian self-management.

And very seriously, governments often cloak genocides as merely passive means, when it's anything […]

Okay, I'm willing to take a look at your peer-reviewed source, but I've read other sources which say that the Soviets damn well did target the Ukrainians including a multi-year propaganda campaign which began in the 1920s which presented the Ukrainians as the bad guys and "other. " And per The Atlantic article above, the Soviets prevented people from leaving the Ukraine.

The thing is that the work of Tauger, Mark B. has pretty much convinced me that the party, nomenklatura and active urban workers ought to be indicted for criminal incompetence, rather than malice.
Tauger and Conquest go each other over the specificity or universality of internal migration restrictions in 1932, in the letters in Slavic Review below.


Davies, Tauger, Wheatcroft (1995) "Stalin, Grain stocks…" Slavic Review http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Ukraine_Famine.pdf at pages 652–653
Tauger (1991) "The 1932 Harvest" Slavic Review https://newcoldwar.org/wp-content/u...and-the-Famine-of-1933-Slavic-REview-1991.pdf at pages 73ff, especially footnote 53, which is followed up on in his later shitfight with Conquest (Slavic Review 51 1 at 193ff; 53 1 at 318ff; both on academia.edu)
Tauger (?2005) "Grain Crisis or Famine [1928-29 famine]" at 168 is also telling on the general attitude, Ukraine received more food imports than exports

cheers,
Sam R.

To help me find this again when needed:
1932 famine relief
 

trurle

Banned
What if Stalin didn't collectivize the soviet agriculture? How might have it changed this country? What about agricultural productions? Famines?
The immediate (within a year) widespread city famine would be a result. Actually, collectivization was triggered by perceived threat of famine - because the peasants were refusing to sell produce for prices they considered too low, and cities did not produced enough of industrial goods for exchange with rural areas.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_grain_procurement_crisis_of_1928

The city famine can be reduced to some degree by more flexible grain purchase prices, but i afraid a sort of famine was inevitable no matter of Soviet leadership actions. IOTL, Stalin and others just choose to sacrifice rural populations whom they considered less useful for the state survival.
 
Well, first lesson I draw, that even if you're a revolutionary, think in terms of evolution and transition. Just like relief pitching is awfully important in baseball, the transition is awfully important in politics and economics.

And very seriously, governments often cloak genocides as merely passive means, when it's anything but. This was the case, for example, with the 1971 Bengali genocide which West Pakistan committed in what would become Bangladesh.

Okay, I'm willing to take a look at your peer-reviewed source, but I've read other sources which say that the Soviets damn well did target the Ukrainians including a multi-year propaganda campaign which began in the 1920s which presented the Ukrainians as the bad guys and "other. " And per The Atlantic article above, the Soviets prevented people from leaving the Ukraine.
Some source would be good here. At the same time there was a massive Ukrainisation campaign to an extent that Ukrainian had been made the language of instruction in practically every school in Ukraine, including in Russian dominated areas.
 
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