the_lyniezian
Banned
I always wanted to ask the reverse, almost- what if the civil rights movement happened much earlier? Could it?
I always wanted to ask the reverse, almost- what if the civil rights movement happened much earlier? Could it?
Butterflies are humongous. Nelson Mandela likely dies in prison. European intellectuals would have valid reasons to sneer at Americans.
No offense, but could you start a separate thread for that discussion?I always wanted to ask the reverse, almost- what if the civil rights movement happened much earlier? Could it?
I always wanted to ask the reverse, almost- what if the civil rights movement happened much earlier? Could it?
Perhaps quite the opposite. If the McCarthy committee and HUAAC continue with their red paranoia, they can derail the entire movement.
The POD would be that McCarthy does not get discredited. After that, Hoover's accusations of communist influence behind the civil rights movement gets a bigger hearing and serious consideration.
That would discredit the movement.
I always wanted to ask the reverse, almost- what if the civil rights movement happened much earlier? Could it?
No offense, but could you start a separate thread for that discussion?
And the irony would be that McCarthy supported civil rights. At least he certainly wasn't a racist.To some degree maybe, but theire'd still be the foreign policy considerations I mentioned before.
If McCarthy does better, Civil Rights might do less well - but still better than with no Cold War at all.
While it's easy to have McCarthy avoid being so thoroughly destroyed by the Army-McCarthy hearings (literally those were all Cohn's fault), the Red Scare doesn't necessarily mean the civil rights movement is gutted. The Republicans still saw themselves as the party of Lincoln and as has been mentioned did vote for equal rights, even a lot of the ultraconservatives.Perhaps quite the opposite. If the McCarthy committee and HUAAC continue with their red paranoia, they can derail the entire movement.
The POD would be that McCarthy does not get discredited. After that, Hoover's accusations of communist influence behind the civil rights movement gets a bigger hearing and serious consideration.
That would discredit the movement.
Right on both counts. McCarthy was not only very much in favor of racial equality (he always voted for legislation supporting it and now and then tried to add pro-CR amendments to bills), but he was very sensitive and easily hurt by accusations of bigotry. Being called an anti-Semite greatly saddened him and he felt terrible about how he may have come across during the Annie Lee Moss hearings.And the irony would be that McCarthy supported civil rights. At least he certainly wasn't a racist.
Right on both counts. McCarthy was not only very much in favor of racial equality (he always voted for legislation supporting it and now and then tried to add pro-CR amendments to bills), but he was very sensitive and easily hurt by accusations of bigotry. Being called an anti-Semite greatly saddened him and he felt terrible about how he may have come across during the Annie Lee Moss hearings.
In order to be perceived as the winner in the confrontation against the Army Lawyer, Welch, McCarthy first off needs to NOT be nearly blind drunk at the time of the confrontation. Second, even though he was stinking drunk, if you watch the entire exchange between Welch and McCarthy, you can see that Welch was no match for even a drunk McCarthy. His only recourse was to play to the camera. --Welch challenged first Cohn then McCarthy to name one communist. When McCarthy came up with a name (that didn't come from McCarthy's committee), Welch cried like a little bitch for the camera.While it's easy to have McCarthy avoid being so thoroughly destroyed by the Army-McCarthy hearings (literally those were all Cohn's fault), the Red Scare doesn't necessarily mean the civil rights movement is gutted. The Republicans still saw themselves as the party of Lincoln and as has been mentioned did vote for equal rights, even a lot of the ultraconservatives.
Here is where i have some disagreement with your position. IF McCarthy is not discredited, then the public is still going to be looking for commies under every rock. With the (supposed) communist funding of the civil rights movement, whether real or imagined, it would be much harder for Republicans seeking re-election to support the movement. Doing so gives the anti civil rights Democrats the political opportunity to have the Republican opposition hoist on their own petard in respect to being tough on communism. At this point in history, the Republicans have not yet become "the stupid party".So if some of the leadership of or groups supporting the civil rights movement may be brought under suspicion of being subversive, the Red Scare propagators would probably push for a more "American" civil rights movement under the leadership of "loyal" minorities.
If McCarthy is not descredited, then Hoover's fucking around gets heard by a wider audience. All of a sudden, people like Jesse Helms (who was not around during this time, i know that) don't seem like the loons that they are.That being said, Hoover's still likely to fuck around. He did it IOTL, but there's no reason to think that he'd be able to turn the ultraconservatives completely against civil rights.
To have a Civil Rights stymied, have an early 9/11...with blacks as the hijackers. Martin Luther King gets jailed as a national security risk on Hoovers orders.
It is said that -- While the Supremes don't need to read Election Polls - They do read the Newspaper.What if legislation like the Civil Rights act of 1964,