WI: No Cicero?

[Drunk Gracchus]

What if Marcus Tullius Cicero Cicero, the Roman statesman and Lawyer never existed, or died at a very young age? I don't think this would have too much of an affect on the Civil Wars, but it would affect later Roman writers such as Tacitus who longed for Republican era statesmen.

Beyond that, Would the Italian Renaissance have started in the same way? Petrarch is credited with sparking the Renaissance with the rediscovery of Cicero's letters in the 14th century.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Well, first thing that comes to mind is how this affects the career of Catiline; to start, does he actually stand a chance of being elected Consul now, and if his gambit still fails as OTL, do we still get a conspiracy (or “conspiracy”, depending on who you believe), and if so, do the alt consuls react the same as Cicero did? Personally, I seriously doubt that we get to a “yes” for the third (ie Cataline is Consul, or his conspiracy succeeds, etc), meaning that around 63 BCE TTL will see some major changes.

 

[Drunk Gracchus]

Well, first thing that comes to mind is how this affects the career of Catiline; to start, does he actually stand a chance of being elected Consul now, and if his gambit still fails as OTL, do we still get a conspiracy (or “conspiracy”, depending on who you believe), and if so, do the alt consuls react the same as Cicero did? Personally, I seriously doubt that we get to a “yes” for the third (ie Cataline is Consul, or his conspiracy succeeds, etc), meaning that around 63 BCE TTL will see some major changes.

With the ruling class being against him for supposedly being a populist, I doubt he would win, even if Cicero doesn't exist. I don't know if he would still be executed following the second Catiline Conspiracy. With firebrands like Cato still being around, I think it would still largely play out the same way.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

With the ruling class being against him for supposedly being a populist, I doubt he would win, even if Cicero doesn't exist. I don't know if he would still be executed following the second Catiline Conspiracy. With firebrands like Cato still being around, I think it would still largely play out the same way.

Cataline did come in third that election, and his main opponent, Cicero, was a particularly talented politician; populist or no, I get the sense that having him win one of the consul seats, with Hybrida winning the other, is at least fairly plausible.

 

[Drunk Gracchus]

Cataline did come in third that election, and his main opponent, Cicero, was a particularly talented politician; populist or no, I get the sense that having him win one of the consul seats, with Hybrida winning the other, is at least fairly plausible.

I don't think it would be impossible, but the power power structure was against him, so he's working uphill. Even if he does win, I doubt he'd be able to push forward his measures of cancelling debts. If he's going to be that much of a hassle he might see an end like the Gracchi. He does get executed without trial in OTL.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I don't think it would be impossible, but the power power structure was against him, so he's working uphill. Even if he does win, I doubt he'd be able to push forward his measures of cancelling debts. If he's going to be that much of a hassle he might see an end like the Gracchi. He does get executed without trial in OTL.

Well, that's a pretty big change from OTL in its own right -- instead of the populares being scandalized for years by a conspiracy against the republic, leading to huge political wins for the optimates in the next few years,* you have Cataline as a latter day Gracchus being martyred, thus energizing his supporters further.

*winds which, incidentally, saw Cato elected to the tribuneship, and playing a crucial role in his early career

 

[isabella]

Cicero’s greatest importance in his time is not really about his consulship and the Catilina’s conspiracy (as Hybrida’s election was assured and the Optimates enemies of Catilina spent a fortune for having Cicero elected instead of him and without Cicero would have spent that money on someone else for the same reason... really they surely knew Cicero and his thinking but I do not think who they were really happy to support an homus novus from Arpinum and Cicero was not really their ally before his consulship and the death)... The election and the conspiracy of Catilina can go in any way, like the sort of his allies (and Cato Minor had bigger responsibility than Cicero in the choice of killing without trial Catilina’s supporters). Instead the case in favour of Roscio Amerino and the one against Verre without him would go in the other way and likely without him Mark Antony would have a much easier life after Caesar’s death while Octavian would find much harder his first tentative of taken power and is possible who without Cicero Antony and Lepidus will be able to take the political inheritance of Caesar and the leadership of the Populares’s party alone and preventing the successive civil wars (between Caesaetians, against Caesar’s killers, against Srxtus and against Antony).

Cato Minor was tribune of plebs in 63 BC, the same year of Cicero’s consulship and Catilina,s conspiracy aka was elected in the same election of Cicero not after him

 

[Sertorius126]

Cato Minor was tribune of plebs in 63 BC, the same year of Cicero’s consulship and Catilina,s conspiracy aka was elected in the same election of Cicero not after him

He was tribune of the plebs from December 10th 63 to December 10th 62 alongside Metellus Nepos, so he was elected after Cicero.

 

[isabella]

He was tribune of the plebs from December 10th 63 to December 10th 62 alongside Metellus Nepos, so he was elected after Cicero.

Oh, well my mistake but still he was already elected as tribune at the time of the discovery of the conspiracy not after that, right?

 

[Sertorius126]

Oh, well my mistake but still he was already elected as tribune at the time of the discovery of the conspiracy not after that, right?

Yes, indeed he was asked to give his opinion in the Senate about the conspirators as one of the designated tribunes for the next year.

 

[isabella]

Yes, indeed he was asked to give his opinion in the Senate about the conspirators as one of the designated tribunes for the next year.

Then my main point for talking about him and the reason for my mistake are explained... I was saying who Cato’s election was not related to the discovery and suppression of Catilina’s conspiracy as was precedent to it