WI no black slavery?

NapoleonXIV

Banned
WI for one reason or another (best possibility no expansion of bantu peoples) the African tribes do not engage in the slave trade and the source of black African slaves to the New World dries up, as whites could not penetrate the interior to get slaves themselves. How is subsequent history effected?
 

Thande

Donor
If there was no slavery among Africans (though I think it's rather unlikely that there wouldn't be, even with no Bantu migration), then Europeans most probably wouldn't think of enslaving Africans in the abstract. They were only used because there was a ready supply already available because of the slaving system in play in West Africa.

So Europeans will use something else. Either some form of white serfdom (though it's probably a bit late for that by the time America is colonised) or - here's an idea - how about Muslim slaves? The Mediterranean powers traditionally used Muslim (if they were Christian) or Christian (if they were Muslim) slaves (from captives in battle, usually) to propel their galleys; what if instead some of these are sent on to America?
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
It isn't that there's no slavery among Africans, it's that there's no surplus of male slaves brought about by bantu warring practices. (I don't know how this worked, nor am I really sure the bantu were responsible, but I do know the surplus existed.) This surplus really drove the slave trade as it is unlikely the coastal tribes would have gone to war with the interior (at least in the beginning) to supply traders that didn't exist until explorers saw how cheap slaves were.
 
Well, Thande's idea about Muslim slaves is certainly interesting, but I think it might be harder to get a steady supply from the Ottomans et al. Certainly, it would alter the currents of trade, since the Trianlge Trade would have to flow through the Med or around the Cape of Good Hope. It would seem however that theories of racial inferiority associated with slavery would be vastly different: if a Muslim slave converted to Christianity would he be freed?

If so, then slavery will not make sense for the early colonial powers like the Portugese and the Spanish, who would also want to spread Christianity. However, if the Africans don't practice slavery, then the Spanish and Portugese may not try to enslave native American populations and instead reduce them to something like serfdom.

All in all, I'd imagine that indentured labor takes the place of slavery in terms of serving the need to import manual labor to the New World. The question here is does indentured labor evolve into full fledged debt-slavery? I imagine it largely depends on the economic returns involved.

Consider sugar cane planatations, which thrived OTL due to their ability to work their slave labor to death. If it's cheaper to work a slave to death than to preserve the capital invested in his or her purchase, presumably it is even better to do so with indentured laborers. However, indentured servitude is nominally voluntary and who would volunteer to work to death? If they had to depend on indentured servitude for labor, I don't think sugar plantations could have maintained the kind of profit margins they enjoyed OTL.

Cash crops whose cultivation do not require such poor conditions may be another matter all together. Working a tobacco or cotton field in Virginia or South Carolina is presumably little different from working a field in Europe (except for the differing diseases involved). And of course there's the incentive that the laborer upon finishing his term of service would have learned a more profitable skill (farming a cash crop).

However, there's still a problem: can you take out debt on the labor owed you by an indentured servant? I think the answer is no. The whole reason the person is obligated to you is that he or she in debt to you. From an economic point of view, the price of the servant should capture the future benefits the master would accrue due to the servant's labor. And of course the servant is not property; after some term of service, he or she is free and hence of no inherent economic value to the master. This drastically reduces that ability to borrow against the value of the forced labor pool, which was a characteristic practice among slaveholders in plantation economies. Without this access to debt afforded by holding the labor, the mechanics of a plantation economy are drastically changed. The master must focus his efforts on attaining productive value from the servant, rather than living off of borrowed money (as many slaveholders did, in the United States). Planters' income would now depends much more on their ability to make money, rather than borrow against the value of their slave. They can still borrow against the price of their land or their future crops, but they must bare the expense of the servant as such.

Now, this difference in my mind drastically changes the appeal of engaging in plantation agriculture. In any case, it changes the mindset of that culture fairly fundamentally. I see two cases, depending on the actuall degree of profitability of the altered system of indentured labor: if indentured labor is more profitable than simple agriculutre, then indentured labor continues, but the planters of the system take on much more the mindest of a robber baron than an aristocratic grandee (i.e. a manager rather than a person of leisure). If not, then the New World becomes largely a haven for dissident seeking a new life.

I think the answer must be some kind of combination of the two, depending on later circumstances and events.

I would also note that I wonder if theories of racism might persist far longer than they did OTL. Note that I would separate here the racism engendered by race slavery and that engendered by the difference between peoples of different nations (i.e. Asians and Europeans). Presumably the lack of the former would affect the tenor of the later, but the later would still exist, in the samer manner that Englishman of the 1700s had a complex hierarchy of the relative merits of different races. I suppose if this were the case, race might never truly differentiate from nationality in the sense it did (i.e. theories of Mogloid, Negroid, and Caucasian races).
 
If so, then slavery will not make sense for the early colonial powers like the Portugese and the Spanish, who would also want to spread Christianity. However, if the Africans don't practice slavery, then the Spanish and Portugese may not try to enslave native American populations and instead reduce them to something like serfdom.

All in all, I'd imagine that indentured labor takes the place of slavery in terms of serving the need to import manual labor to the New World.

Enslaving the natives - or turning them in to serfs - can only work where the population levels aren't to low, and don't plummet to fast due to Old-World diseases. So, many places that became the prime areas of plantations run on slave labor would remain relatively empty - due to a lack of labor.

Replacing the slaves with more indentured Europeans would be difficult - most European landlords didn't like the perspective that their serfs would leave their estates. As long as this remains that way (serfdom very common in Europe) the pool of potential migrants isn't that large.

An immediate effect would be smaller estates in the sparsely populated colonies - and no strong social differentiation - no planter class. As long as indentured workers can easily start their own farm once their term is up, as land is abundant, Yeoman farmers will dominate. Fewer workers means fewer cash crops are produced - prices remain higher. May be some Yeoman farmers growing cash crops might organize in marketing co-operatives to achieve market access, and immigration might be somewhot up (stronger pull due to easier possibility to make some wealth in cash crops - but still restrictions on emigration in most of Europe...).

A side effect might be that the more egalitarian society might fail to produce local elites that have the leizure to contemplate revolution - they have to work their fields themselves...
 
Guys

I notice we're discussing the effects on western European settlement of the Americas. Very little on how this actually affects western sub-Saharaian Africa. [In the east you would still have Muslim slavery of Africans. Possibly also in the north, although I think that was like the western trade, i.e. partly due to market surpluses so may also be affected].
 
That's a good point. On West Africa itself, we'd need to know just what the change is that prohibits the adoption of slavery among the African tribes. I'd imagine that this means more stable societies; certainly an escape from the kind of patterns of warfare caused by the slave trade and thus an escape from concommitant disruption.

However, I'm not sure whether this is enough to allow for the emergence of something substantially different. Put simply, is the lack of slavery enough to overcome the lack of the geographical, climatoligcal, and ecological cocktail J. Diamond describes in Guns, Germs, and Steel: i.e. few draft animals, north-south land axis, etc. West Africa may have potential since it is the one part of Africa that does not have the north-south problem.
 
An easier way to get very few slaves in America, is to have the Indentured Servants not rise up so soon. That is when the Slave Trade started up big.
 
Could Europeans get slaves from India? The Europeans would be able to use the Hindu-Moslem split to acquire slaves.
 
Enslave the Irish I say.

Didn't they try that OTL and it didn't work out very well?

I seem to remember reading some book a looong time ago about how early Europeans tried to enslave Native Americans and it didn't work out so well since, by and large, they weren't used to living in an agricultural society, whereas slaves from West Africa were already familiar with planting, crop cycles, harvesting, etc.

EDIT: Butterflies from this are huge, btw. As I understood it, the very concept of race and racism was essentially invented in the 1600's to keep black and white slaves from working together in revolts and such. If this happens, America doesn't have the same legacy of institutionalized racism (there's still the whole Amerindian genocide, but I'm assuming that isn't also butterflied away... Without a rich cotton-pickin' south, does the US even expand west? Does the US even exist?). Yeah. Butterflies are HUGE.
 

Thande

Donor
Cromwell tried this, didn't he?

American myth. There were Irish indentured servants in the Americas at one point but Cromwell certainly had nothing to do with it. He was only in Ireland for eight months, for crying out loud, and spent most of that fighting renegade Englishmen!
 
American myth. There were Irish indentured servants in the Americas at one point but Cromwell certainly had nothing to do with it. He was only in Ireland for eight months, for crying out loud, and spent most of that fighting renegade Englishmen!

What is it with damn colonials and the Irish, anyway?... :p
 
And what about native americans? OTL the African slaves were brought to America because they were considered better than the natives to work in the plantations. But if there is not the possibility of bringing Africans maybe the Europeans could try to use more natives too.
 
And what about native americans? OTL the African slaves were brought to America because they were considered better than the natives to work in the plantations. But if there is not the possibility of bringing Africans maybe the Europeans could try to use more natives too.

The main problem with that is the Amerinds kept dieing from all of the diseases that the Europeans brought with them.
Using them as slaves/serfs were only really possible where there were a lot of them, i.e. in Mexico and Peru (Aztecs and Incas respectively).
 

Kaptin Kurk

Banned
I think this PoD would require, prehaps, a stronger and more successful West-African kingdoms. Kingdoms which were somehow able to resist pressure from Arab incursions from the north, and simultaneous extend their influence further south and inland than they did historically.

I don't think you can get rid of African slavery completely without major ancient PoD's, but a lucky turn here, and the early death of an incompetent king there, might leave you with the Europeans finding an African coast in which the inhabitants are considered subjects of a core state, and slaves are mostly being shipped in from the interior...but travel cost making their price a bit too high to be that interesting at first.

I.E., you could possibly raise the costs of African slaves to the point that Europeans wouldn't be too interested in paying it.
 
The main problem with that is the Amerinds kept dieing from all of the diseases that the Europeans brought with them.
Using them as slaves/serfs were only really possible where there were a lot of them, i.e. in Mexico and Peru (Aztecs and Incas respectively).

Hmm, I'm not so sure. In Brazil, for example, the southern territories used Amerindians as slaves until the 18th, when the discovery of gold allowed the poorest captaincies to buy African slaves. The natives generally died from diseases, but mostly the first generation. The colonizers from São Paulo, for example, used natives captured from Spanish Missions. Those Guarany were already used to work in plantantions, and were more resistant to diseases (they were the sons of the survivors from the first epidemies). So, maybe the English colonies could also attack some areas of the Spanish colonies, to take natives who already developed resistance to disease as prisoners and use them as slaves, just as the Portuguese did.
 
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