WI: No Black Death in Europe, no Renaissance, continued control of Latin Church over daily life

That is to say, the conditions for the end of feudalism, conquest of the Americas, decline of the low nobility, and social changes are not developed.

I envision a Europe focused on futile crusades, stagnating technologically, but scholarly activity in Western European universities continuing.

How does Europe look at the end of the 15th century, and many centuries later? Will the Reformation take place? If not, what does that change?
 
That is to say, the conditions for the end of feudalism, conquest of the Americas, decline of the low nobility, and social changes are not developed.

I envision a Europe focused on futile crusades, stagnating technologically, but scholarly activity in Western European universities continuing.

How does Europe look at the end of the 15th century, and many centuries later? Will the Reformation take place? If not, what does that change?

A lot more of the lower nobility goes adventuring in the New World, Africa, and East Indies.
 
That is to say, the conditions for the end of feudalism
Medieval feudalities already were going trough a change : the disappearence of servage in western Europe was enacted before the plague, for instance, as well the great urban development and the subsequent starvation crises due to agricultural production not meeting demands.
It might be stressed that, if anything, the importance of religion grew during the crisis, and launched some sort of "awakening" into the population that can be illustrated with the prevalence of Christian names in popular classes after the XIVth century.

decline of the low nobility
If anything, we see the disappearance of many aristocratic lineages at the benefit of middle nobility during the Late Middle-Ages, and these will dominate (as aristocratic lineage themselves) the later periods, socially wise.

, and social changes are not developed.
They were already ongoing since the XIIth century : could be mentioned, for instance, disappearance of serfdom, birth of medieval capitalism, rise of urban freedoms (with or without royal patronage and limitations) and secularization of political authority.
Medieval era as a period of stagnation, including (and critically) socially is a trope since long debunked.

The Black Death may have served as an accelerent on this development, as well with definitive specificites, but it didn't ended Middle-Ages by itself (and many of late medieval concepts survived up to the XVIIth/XVIIIth centuries).
Starvation crises would still happen as in 1315-1317, and generalized warfare in Europe is still pretty much likely.
 
A lot more of the lower nobility goes adventuring in the New World, Africa, and East Indies.

Are we going to see less trans-Atlantic slavery, then? There will be more manpower and labor available for Spanish and Portuguese colonies in what is now Latin America.

They were already ongoing since the XIIth century : could be mentioned, for instance, disappearance of serfdom, birth of medieval capitalism, rise of urban freedoms (with or without royal patronage and limitations) and secularization of political authority.
Medieval era as a period of stagnation, including (and critically) socially is a trope since long debunked.

The Black Death may have served as an accelerent on this development, as well with definitive specificites, but it didn't ended Middle-Ages by itself (and many of late medieval concepts survived up to the XVIIth/XVIIIth centuries).
Starvation crises would still happen as in 1315-1317, and generalized warfare in Europe is still pretty much likely.

I'm aware that the concept of the medieval "dark ages" is mythological, but you can't deny that the Black Death resulted in immense individual opportunity for people who were previously at the bottom of the social ladder. The lack of such a system shock is going to slow the rapid overhaul of European society and could perhaps take its course in a different direction.
 
Without Black Death, Europe's population will grow faster and there will be even more pressure to expand to new lands.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I'm aware that the concept of the medieval "dark ages" is mythological, but you can't deny that the Black Death resulted in immense individual opportunity for people who were previously at the bottom of the social ladder. The lack of such a system shock is going to slow the rapid overhaul of European society and could perhaps take its course in a different direction.
Are we talking about no Black Death, or no plague period?

Because 14th century Europe was basically at the Malthusian edge of sustainable population where a huge percentage of the peasantry exists on sustenance level diets, it's inevitable for there to be some kind of plague simply because malnourishment has weakened the immune systems of a large percentage of the population.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I envision a Europe focused on futile crusades, stagnating technologically
1) In the age of exploration, the nobility who sponsored/founded/went on explorations to Africa or Americas thought it -was- the equivalent of a crusade

2) Medieval society did not have technological stagnation, the rate of technological advance was actually -faster- than during the Roman era
 
1) In the age of exploration, the nobility who sponsored/founded/went on explorations to Africa or Americas thought it -was- the equivalent of a crusade

As I recall, one of the arguments Columbus used to get funding was "We can outflank the Turks and attack them in the rear!" And, IIRC, the last war in which indulgences were given to participating soldiers was the Great Turkish War, which didn't end until 1699.

Somewhat ironically, it seems that European states lost interest in crusading at around the time when they were getting the ability to actually crusade successfully. Europe from the 18th century began to noticeably pull ahead of the rest of the world in terms of technology and ability to conquer far-off places, whilst the Ottoman Empire was in decline at around this period. A Christian power trying to reconquer the Holy Land in the late 18th century would actually have a good chance of success.
 
*
I'm aware that the concept of the medieval "dark ages" is mythological, but you can't deny that the Black Death resulted in immense individual opportunity for people who were previously at the bottom of the social ladder.
It did, but it wasn't causal : you already had social changes since the XIIth century, which went in the early XIVth century trough both a growing liberalisation (in France, serfdom isn't only disappearing but relatively quickly abolished since 1315) of statutes.
Without Black Death, this movement wouldn't go anywhere.
 
Let's not even get into the Eurocentrism of the author. Apparently, he thinks that only European progress is relevant and the progress and changes of the rest of the world aren't. He also seems to think that all progress and change in the world was already contingent on (Western) Europe by the time of the Black Death, which is a proposition that can't be taken seriously.
 
Let's not even get into the Eurocentrism of the author. Apparently, he thinks that only European progress is relevant and the progress and changes of the rest of the world aren't. He also seems to think that all progress and change in the world was already contingent on (Western) Europe by the time of the Black Death, which is a proposition that can't be taken seriously.

Uh, where did I say any of that?
 

elkarlo

Banned
Let's not even get into the Eurocentrism of the author. Apparently, he thinks that only European progress is relevant and the progress and changes of the rest of the world aren't. He also seems to think that all progress and change in the world was already contingent on (Western) Europe by the time of the Black Death, which is a proposition that can't be taken seriously.
Well if you think of it that way. Then it is oddly eurocentric as well as being highly dismissive of what medieval Europe was really like.
 
As I recall, one of the arguments Columbus used to get funding was "We can outflank the Turks and attack them in the rear!" And, IIRC, the last war in which indulgences were given to participating soldiers was the Great Turkish War, which didn't end until 1699.

Somewhat ironically, it seems that European states lost interest in crusading at around the time when they were getting the ability to actually crusade successfully. Europe from the 18th century began to noticeably pull ahead of the rest of the world in terms of technology and ability to conquer far-off places, whilst the Ottoman Empire was in decline at around this period. A Christian power trying to reconquer the Holy Land in the late 18th century would actually have a good chance of success.

I don't think anyone took the Turks argument seriously.

As for Europe in the 18th century pulling ahead, the problem of thee idea of a Christian power trying to retake the Holy Land wasn't about righteousness (no seriously, I really don't think the opposition would really rise) but when rulers thought about the most important thing in this era... the Quest to Make More Money. Ok, really the quest for an economic base, but since the Pound Sterling was pretty stable at this time, if you have tripke the Pounds in 1710 as you did in 1700, you are likely three times as rich.
 
For starters, it's very likely that China, India, or Dar-al-Islam (or some combo of all three) would be the center of the modern world.
 
It might be stressed that, if anything, the importance of religion grew during the crisis, and launched some sort of "awakening" into the population that can be illustrated with the prevalence of Christian names in popular classes after the XIVth century.
This. There was a move invthat era to have the laity integrared even more into thr devotional life of Holy Mother Church, and especially more catechesis (Joan of Arc is actually a good example of what the post-Plague Church aspored its laity to be - an admittedly well-to-do peasant that is not only devoted to the Holy Name, but is catdchized well enough that she can credibly defend her orthodoxy.)
 
That is to say, the conditions for the end of feudalism, conquest of the Americas, decline of the low nobility, and social changes are not developed.

I envision a Europe focused on futile crusades, stagnating technologically, but scholarly activity in Western European universities continuing.

How does Europe look at the end of the 15th century, and many centuries later? Will the Reformation take place? If not, what does that change?

Europe gets conquered by the Ottoman Empire. Madrid, Rome and Vienna become centres of Islamic theology. Saint Peter's in Rome is turned into a mosque. Muslim rule extends to the Alps and the Pyrennees. The Ottomans turn the Mediterranean into an Islamic sea. The sound of the church bells is replaced by the cry "Allahu akbar".
 
Europe gets conquered by the Ottoman Empire. Madrid, Rome and Vienna become centres of Islamic theology. Saint Peter's in Rome is turned into a mosque. Muslim rule extends to the Alps and the Pyrennees. The Ottomans turn the Mediterranean into an Islamic sea. The sound of the church bells is replaced by the cry "Allahu akbar".

Doubt
 
I don't think anyone took the Turks argument seriously.

As for Europe in the 18th century pulling ahead, the problem of thee idea of a Christian power trying to retake the Holy Land wasn't about righteousness (no seriously, I really don't think the opposition would really rise) but when rulers thought about the most important thing in this era... the Quest to Make More Money. Ok, really the quest for an economic base, but since the Pound Sterling was pretty stable at this time, if you have tripke the Pounds in 1710 as you did in 1700, you are likely three times as rich.
You'd be surprised. The Portuguese were very big into the idea of a Crusade until 1550 at least, and the reconquest of Jerusalem was the very explicit purpose of Manuel's voyages
 

Marc

Donor
The World System which had developed during 1250-1350 CE; a matrix of relationships, political, economic, social, and intellectual - a system of exchange that was unprecedented in degree and scale across the entirety of the Old World - continues.
However, on the down side, we still get the the Great Famine, and the other debilitating effects of the "Little Ice Age".
Instead of European hegemony we get a continuation of the parity that existed between the four major civilizations.

(For Byzantium fans, avoiding the Black Death, very likely adds some decades to the existence of that State.)
 
The World System which had developed during 1250-1350 CE; a matrix of relationships, political, economic, social, and intellectual - a system of exchange that was unprecedented in degree and scale across the entirety of the Old World - continues.
However, on the down side, we still get the the Great Famine, and the other debilitating effects of the "Little Ice Age".
Instead of European hegemony we get a continuation of the parity that existed between the four major civilizations.

(For Byzantium fans, avoiding the Black Death, very likely adds some decades to the existence of that State.)

By four major civilizations do you mean Europe, the Islamic world, India and China?
 
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