WI: No Barbarossa, can Germany repell normandy

SANAND

Banned
If Germany hadn't gone ahead with invading the Soviet Union, and instead considered the war in Europe over, could they have been able to defeat the allies at Normandy, or at least defeat them some time later on in the war?
 
The Germans literally cannot avoid an invasion of the USSR. The Nazi raison d'etre is an apocalyptic war with the "Judaeo-Bolsheviks." They can only delay that war for so long, too, as past 1942 any invasion will produce a dramatic, smashing victory.....for the Soviet Union. The summer of 1941 was the best timing the Germans could have chosen, their army for all its flaws at its strongest, the Soviet one at its weakest.
 

SANAND

Banned
But let's say for some reason, they decide they can co-exist with the SU(which is impossible but for the sake of argument).

Would they be able to repel an identical normandy invasion with all of their available troops?
 
But let's say for some reason, they decide they can co-exist with the SU(which is impossible but for the sake of argument).

Would they be able to repel an identical normandy invasion with all of their available troops?

In this scenario any invasion won't be Overlord. In this scenario the Soviets *will* jump the Nazis, and against T-34s, Katyushas, and the vast Soviet armies jumping the Nazis at their strongest the Germans will go from hitherto unstoppable to the Soviets' springboard to superpower status.
 
The Germans get anally raped by the Red Army in 1942 or 43, which will be equivalent to the later war Red Army but with enormous amounts of industrial and agricultural land that IOTL was captured by Germany and millions more soldiers and possible soldiers, along with workers and farmers to support the home front. The Red Army will have superior equipment, and unlike in 1941-43 they'll have the total strategic initiative along the entire front. It also has brilliant commanders like Vlasov who IOTL were killed or captured.
 
The Germans get anally raped by the Red Army in 1942 or 43, which will be equivalent to the later war Red Army but with enormous amounts of industrial and agricultural land that IOTL was captured by Germany and millions more soldiers and possible soldiers, along with workers and farmers to support the home front. The Red Army will have superior equipment, and unlike in 1941-43 they'll have the total strategic initiative along the entire front. It also has brilliant commanders like Vlasov who IOTL were killed or captured.

Emphasis on the millions more soldiers here. Simply the 10,000,000 soldiers who died in 1941 IOTL will swamp any Wehrmacht that will start a war in 1942 on defense, as nobody will ever accuse the Soviet army of concern for human life any more than they would the Wehrmacht. *This* would be the Russian Steamroller in action.
 
Okay, lets say that some ASB makes it so that there's an immutable barrier between German and the USSR, or Stalin is otherwise unable to hurt Hitler (the total lack of support infrastructure would slow things up, since without Barbarossa the USSR won't be getting the millions of trucks it got at a knockdown price OTL), Can NAZI Germany put off a 1944 Operation Overlord?
 

gaijin

Banned
Simple matterof statistics really. On the one side are the invasion forces. The deciding factor here is how fast can they get reinforced. How much shipping can be intercepted, how much gear can be offloaded etc.

On the German side we have the same problem, how fast can significant forces be brought to bear in the area. How much of these forces can be intercepted by air power etc.

Figure out those two (which is impossible IMHO because they depend on too many factors) and you know the result.
 
It's possible... but I don't think the Allies would even try Overlord in 1944 if the Soviet Union wasn't involved.
 
Okay, lets say that some ASB makes it so that there's an immutable barrier between German and the USSR, or Stalin is otherwise unable to hurt Hitler (the total lack of support infrastructure would slow things up, since without Barbarossa the USSR won't be getting the millions of trucks it got at a knockdown price OTL), Can NAZI Germany put off a 1944 Operation Overlord?

If that's the case than this should be moved to ASB.
 
It's possible... but I don't think the Allies would even try Overlord in 1944 if the Soviet Union wasn't involved.

It wouldn't be the Overlord of OTL, certainly, which was predicated on the German distribution of forces. If some or even most of what was in the East in OTL is in France, then the invasion has to be wildly different to work. And by different, I mean way, way bigger.
 

SANAND

Banned
But it wouldn't be on that scale because they wouldn't have Russia, just France, Poland and the Balkans.
 
It wouldn't be the Overlord of OTL, certainly, which was predicated on the German distribution of forces. If some or even most of what was in the East in OTL is in France, then the invasion has to be wildly different to work. And by different, I mean way, way bigger.

Or a nuke dropped on enemy forces near the beaches before an invasion. And, another on them as they are trying to reform and get their act together.

The huge forward leap the U.S. had in the nuclear arms race meant if they were willing to use the bombs on military or civilian targets they win.
 
If that's the case than this should be moved to ASB.
Or we could go with the slightly less ASB method, where Hitler realises he might well lose to Stalin, and so doesn't really try, instead building a massive Maginot type line along the whole German-Soviet border, and meanwhile Stalin knows the Germans will put up a fight, and thus waits it out for Germans and British+Americans to exhaust themselves before stepping in.
 
Or a nuke dropped on enemy forces near the beaches before an invasion. And, another on them as they are trying to reform and get their act together.

The huge forward leap the U.S. had in the nuclear arms race meant if they were willing to use the bombs on military or civilian targets they win.
And then they land the troops the day after they nuke the beaches. As the invasion force collapses due radiation poisoning, American scientists begin to understand the effects of radiation in human beings.
 
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