Would the split of army improve the military situation of Austria-Hungary?

  • Yes, definately.

    Votes: 5 6.0%
  • Probably.

    Votes: 6 7.2%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 22 26.5%
  • Not really.

    Votes: 9 10.8%
  • It would worsen it.

    Votes: 21 25.3%
  • Catastrophe in itself.

    Votes: 20 24.1%

  • Total voters
    83
  • Poll closed .
I didn't say that the KuK armies didn't have an artillery shortage. Quite the opposite. You are, however, ignoring obvious facts if you just look at the numbers.

The Austro-Hungarian land forces were massive. They had a huge army to equip unlike Italy. Hence why the industrial capacity problem has a more pronounced effect than Italy. Also, I'm curious if those numbers include fully-mobilised armies and if it's A-H in 1914 vs Italy in 1915 when they entered the war. Huge difference.

The dreadnoughts did not impede on the production of field artillery. If it did, I doubt Škoda would have been so interested in the KuK's next-gen battleship that they developped thr main guns for it and built a couple before the naval budget was accepted by the parliaments. Besides, naval expenses were unpopular in Vienna and Budapest and they were definitely needed in response to Italian naval buildup.
I really, really love numbers though.

I had a look at the numbers, and although the Habsburg Empire had around twice the industrial capacity of Italy in 1913, her army was around three times larger (before mobilization).

Also, I was just supposing that the money spent on the navy (which was a nice navy, don't get me wrong. I was lucky enough to visit their former base in Pula a few years back and see an interesting exhibition on it...) could have perhaps been spent on equipment for the army.
This is exatly why I proposed this topic in the first place. With an own complete army, the Hungarian parliement would be more willing to finance the military. The idea of competition between the two sides of the Monarchy serves the same purpose as well.
This is an area in which I'm rather ignorant unfortunately. I did get the impression in the military history museum in Budapest that the Hungarians were rather proud indeed of their armed forces in that period. However, I can understand the reluctance to fund the common army, as Franz Ferdinand had made statements indicating that he wanted to review the terms of the Ausgleich under which Hungary had her autonomous status. Indeed, it's pretty likely that there would have been a change with the relatively pro-Hungarian Franz Josef off the throne.
 
Erm, what plans to invade Hungary and destroy its leadership?

A lot of it, though, is people talking about stuff they know little about. Austro-Hungarian historiography has been really poor until recently. The post-war nationalist and communist regimes are partly to blame for that alongside lack of interest in the west.

It didnt came up in this thread but look for threads that have a surviving Austrian Empire.

A number of people think that the solution of the Empire's survival is the following:
1. Get Franz Ferdinand on the throne
2. Execute U Plan
3. Federalize the Empire and it will survive forever.

Im not really that familiar with Plan U, what I know is that it was made by the common army during the crisis of 1905-06 in Hungary.

What I meant by destroying leadership I meant the Hungarian political elit. The people propagating the above reason that because the very narrow suffrage in Hungary the elit had no popular support so removing them will clear the route.

But back on topic I dont think that the hungarian elit can be faulted for not wanting to pay for an army that was ready to attack it.

If the armies are separate I think they would be willing to spend more on the army.
 
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It didnt came up in this thread but look for threads that have a surviving Austrian Empire.

A number of people think that the solution of the Empire's survival is the following:
1. Get Franz Ferdinand on the throne
2. Execute U Plan
3. Federalize the Empire and it will survive forever.

Im not really that familiar with Plan U, what I know is that it was made by the common army during the crisis of 1905-06 in Hungary.

What I meant by destroying leadership I meant the Hungarian political elit. The people propagating the above reason that because the very narrow suffrage in Hungary the elit had no popular support so removing them will clear the route.

But back on topic I dont think that the hungarian elit can be faulted for not wanting to pay for an army that was ready to attack it.

If the armies are separate I think they would be willing to spend more on the army.
I really, really would love some actual sources on this Plan U. Literally never heard or read about it before. It seems like a completely stupid political move. Then again, it seems to roughly equate with Hötzendorf's tenure and the Hungarian Constitutional Crisis and we all know how much of an idiot Hötzendorf was. The Crisis, however, was a seriously terrible time riddled with some nasty corruption scandals and civil strife that was about to break Hungary apart. Call me an apologist, but maybe it was wise to be ready to restore order if the Hungarian Parliament broke apart from infighting, which is bound to lead to another crisis in Zagreb. Wouldn't want another 1848-esque clusterfuck happening again.

Anyways, I was reading Anthony Sokol's 'The Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Navy', a fairly old book but probably the only decent book on the Navy available in English, and Dr.Sokol has a passage that really struck me as interesting for this topic.

Alongside describing how the Hungarians would get "economic consessions in return for a favourable vote on appropriations", he describes that besides "the joint Navy and Army, in both of which the Emperor insisted that German be retained as the language of command, each half of the realm maintained a territorial army, called Landwehr in Austria, and Honved in Hungary. The Landwehr and the Honved were trained in the same way as the joint Army, but were not as well equipped and used different languages of command. In wartime, they were integrated with the joint Army."

This really seem to agree with my statement that the KuK Army's equipment problem is overblown and that the Landwehr and Honvéd being better funded is at least partially true, if not actually false. It does disagree with my statements about how poorly integrated the three branches were, as they were, I assume, entirely integrated in 1914.

Still, I think I have an explanation to why the KuK Army was so short of artillery: there were no significant artillery industry in Hungary like the Škoda complex in Bohemia. With the Ausgleich, the Hungarians insisted that rifle production be made in Budapest alongside the famous Steyr complex. This meant that OeWG and the FÉG company made rifles for the armies and, as such, rifle shortages were cleared relatively quickly in the war just like thr other comabatants (and even switched over from long M95 rifles to the Stutzen carbines en-masse mid-war when they proved good on the front). However, since Hungary wouldn't profit from an expanded artillery branch in all three land services, it was probably more difficult to convince them to fund more guns, since Škoda would inevitably get thr contracts. It's how the Navy convinced the Hungarians to spend on the Navy; the yards in Fiume/Rijeka would be expanded and ships would be built in Hungary-Croatia, fueling the economy. Still, it would be nice to have hard numbers on rifle, machine gun, artillery, shells and munitions somewhere...

Dr.Sokol also claims that "Most recruits went to the joint Army and Navy, and the rest into the territorial forces." I would love to see numbers for manpower and recruit distribution as well...

Still, I think people forget that the Landwehr and Honvéd were territorial armies and, thus, second-line troops. It doesn't make sense that they would be better trained and equipped than the first-line troops. Plus, if there was no KuK Army, I think the artillery shortage would have been even more glaring in this ATL Honvéd and less so in the ATL Landwehr. It would have taken years for Hungary to build up a substantial artillery manufactory that could barely hope compare to Škoda and it would take even longer for good quality guns to come out unless there's a new arrangement similar to the OeWG Steyr-FÉG one. Which reminds me, why didn't this happen iOTL anyways? Or if it did, I would love more information about it.

Anyways, in the end, this makes me beg for a new, thorough and complete study on the Austro-Hungarian armed forces...
 
I really, really would love some actual sources on this Plan U. Literally never heard or read about it before. It seems like a completely stupid political move. Then again, it seems to roughly equate with Hötzendorf's tenure and the Hungarian Constitutional Crisis and we all know how much of an idiot Hötzendorf was.

Plan U predates Conrad's tenure; he doesn't seem to have played any important role in its creation, though the idea sounds right up his alley.

It was first contemplated in 1903 by Field Marshal Beck (Chief of Staff before Conrad and the Emperor's closest military confidant). Over the next two years, the idea was further developed by the General Staff. In August 1905, the plan was submitted to the government in two versions: the "greater" Plan U - total occupation of Hungary and the creation of a military dictatorship; and the "lesser" Plan - sending the military to suppress Hungarian opposition, but without installing an actual military governorate. The ministers and Franz Joseph approved the plan(s), although Franz Joseph expressed a clear preference for the "lesser" version.

The Plan is described in moderate detail in Gunther Rothenberg's The Army of Francis Joseph.
 
Plus, if there was no KuK Army, I think the artillery shortage would have been even more glaring in this ATL Honvéd and less so in the ATL Landwehr. It would have taken years for Hungary to build up a substantial artillery manufactory that could barely hope compare to Škoda and it would take even longer for good quality guns to come out unless there's a new arrangement similar to the OeWG Steyr-FÉG one. Which reminds me, why didn't this happen iOTL anyways? Or if it did, I would love more information about it.
In this TL wouldn't it be likely, that Hungary tries to establish the production of artillery alongside with rifles as early as possible though? The competition with Austria would be a huge driving factor on this matter in my opinion.
 
In this TL wouldn't it be likely, that Hungary tries to establish the production of artillery alongside with rifles as early as possible though? The competition with Austria would be a huge driving factor on this matter in my opinion.
Sure, but can the Hungarian industry catch up? It's unlikely the Škoda company will share their designs and FÉG had the advantage iOTL of getting the designs from OeWG/Steyr of the service rifles and help tooling up production. Plus, small arms are easier than heavier guns. After all, the Hungarian industry struggled with building the Szent István iOTL (not just because of the limited drydocks in Rijeka/Fiume) and Škoda still made the guns for her.

Of course, this will be corrected over time, which means that eventually, yes, you are entirely correct. After all, Škoda will have competition for heavy guns with whichever Hungarian company decides to build up the factory (Manfred-Weiss, maybe?) and Böhler in Austria. As long as they can all agree on the calibres to use for all the weapons so that logistics don't become a nightmare (and the railways were one iOTL...)
 
Sure, but can the Hungarian industry catch up? It's unlikely the Škoda company will share their designs and FÉG had the advantage iOTL of getting the designs from OeWG/Steyr of the service rifles and help tooling up production. Plus, small arms are easier than heavier guns. After all, the Hungarian industry struggled with building the Szent István iOTL (not just because of the limited drydocks in Rijeka/Fiume) and Škoda still made the guns for her.

Of course, this will be corrected over time, which means that eventually, yes, you are entirely correct. After all, Škoda will have competition for heavy guns with whichever Hungarian company decides to build up the factory (Manfred-Weiss, maybe?) and Böhler in Austria. As long as they can all agree on the calibres to use for all the weapons so that logistics don't become a nightmare (and the railways were one iOTL...)
So the Hungarian industry needs time to catch up, but there's no garantuee it could in time, right? Then what if the war of 1848-'49 doesn't happen and the reforms of 1848 remain intact? It would mean there's a separate Hungarian army and it would give more time to the Hungarian industry to catch up. Your thoughts?
 
So the Hungarian industry needs time to catch up, but there's no garantuee it could in time, right? Then what if the war of 1848-'49 doesn't happen and the reforms of 1848 remain intact? It would mean there's a separate Hungarian army and it would give more time to the Hungarian industry to catch up. Your thoughts?
I remember reading that in 1848, the Hungarians successfully built up their own small arms factory from basically scratch, so it's not implausible.

The question is, can the separate armies survive the likely conflicts to follow, or will external pressure force the reunification of the armies? I can see issues arising during an ATL Austro-Prussian War with the KK Armies being defeated in Bohemia and the Prussiand swooping down into Upper Hungary and taking Pressburg, as almost happened iOTL. Would the divided armies be able to mount a succcessful defence if the armies aren't united? At the very least, it would make them rethink the whole separate armies issues.

Afrer all, any weaking of Austria is the weakening of Hungary. Being surrounded by Prussia and Russia is not a pleasant situation.
 
As a pro Habsburg man myself I can say the idea of seperate armies was always a terrible idea for lasting stability in the Empire since now you've just divided the empire into two camps more obviously than ever.

Sure, but can the Hungarian industry catch up

Well of course, the Weiss Family will lead the way like they did during the war and become even more wealthy as a result.
 
As a pro Habsburg man myself I can say the idea of seperate armies was always a terrible idea for lasting stability in the Empire since now you've just divided the empire into two camps more obviously than ever.
I understand why you think that, I see the logic, but I still believe such a divide would not cause any harm from political point of view, on the contrary, I think it would improve the stability of the monarchy in the sense, that it would finally set the two sides of the monarchy on equal footings, which could lead to a much healthier relationship between Austria and Hungary.
 
I understand why you think that, I see the logic, but I still believe such a divide would not cause any harm from political point of view, on the contrary, I think it would improve the stability of the monarchy in the sense, that it would finally set the two sides of the monarchy on equal footings, which could lead to a much healthier relationship between Austria and Hungary.
I think we can only disagree on that one. I personally believe that the OTL compromise with the KK Landwehr and Honvéd was the better solution (hell, the Austrians wanted a Hungarian Landwehr since Napoleon!) and it would have been even better with the other crownlands having their own Landwehr all under a unified and less-German-dominated High Command instead of only in wartime, but that's a very idealistic situation.
 
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