WI No Austrian Succession?

What would have happened if the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713 had never been passed? IIRC, Maria Josepha was the one who would've been given the throne then, and not Charles' daughter. Josepha also happened to be married to the King of Poland, would this mean Poland becomes a part of the Hapsburg Empire?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
What would have happened if the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713 had never been passed? IIRC, Maria Josepha was the one who would've been given the throne then, and not Charles' daughter. Josepha also happened to be married to the King of Poland, would this mean Poland becomes a part of the Hapsburg Empire?

No because it all those possesion won't be in Habsburg hands but in Wettin hands. Plus it isn't August the Strong, king of Poland, which will inheriate the Habsburg possesions but his son.

But Poland aren't the big deal here, the fact that Saxony are going to join with Habsburg possesion are the big deal. It's going to create a enourmous strong block under the Wettin Emperor. Saxony was among the richest and biggest German states at the time. Poland on the other hand will likely stay under the Wettins until Frederick Augustus I dies in 1733 after which we see a Polish succesion war, mostly because the Magnates elect a non-Wettin king out of fear that the Wettin centralise the state under their rule. Likely what we see are a early 1st Partition of Poland, through maybe with some alternative borders. Prussia will likely take Royal Prussia, while Russia will likely take what they got in the 1st partition in OTL, Galicia will likely stay Polish, through Saxony may receive it as kompensation for the loss of the Polish throne. Sweden may also receive something (maybe Courland and westen Polish Livonia) While the rest of Poland get "independence" from Saxony and de facto end up as a Russian vassal.

The interesting thing which will follow are how the Wettins dynasty adminstrate their new possesions, as Susano like to tell us in OTL they seemed rather incompetent through the 18th century. I would say they may do better, first they have the de facto almost absolut rule over their Austrian, Bohemian and Netherlandic possesion, their religeous tolerance will serve them well in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and Silesia, likely the ease away from the Habsburg arch-Catholism will serve them well in creating a strong power base there.
 
Last edited:
No because it all those possesion won't be in Habsburg hands but in Wettin hands. Plus it isn't August the Strong, king of Poland, which will inheriate the Habsburg possesions but his son.

But Poland aren't the big deal here, the fact that Saxony are going to join with Habsburg possesion are the big deal. It's going to create a enourmous strong block under the Wettin Emperor. Saxony was among the richest and biggest German states at the time. Poland on the other hand will likely stay under the Wettins until Frederick Augustus I dies in 1733 after which we see a Polish succesion war, mostly because the Magnates elect a non-Wettin king out of fear that the Wettin centralise the state under their rule. Likely what we see are a early 1st Partition of Poland, through maybe with some alternative borders. Prussia will likely take Royal Prussia, while Russia will likely take what they got in the 1st partition in OTL, Galicia will likely stay Polish, through Saxony may receive it as kompensation for the loss of the Polish throne. Sweden may also receive something (maybe Courland and westen Polish Livonia) While the rest of Poland get "independence" from Saxony and de facto end up as a Russian vassal.

The interesting thing which will follow are how the Wettins dynasty adminstrate their new possesions, as Susano like to tell us in OTL they seemed rather incompetent through the 18th century. I would say they may do better, first they have the de facto almost absolut rule over their Austrian, Bohemian and Netherlandic possesion, their religeous tolerance will serve them well in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and Silesia, likely the ease away from the Habsburg arch-Catholism will serve them well in creating a strong power base there.

They might call themselves the house of Habsburg-Wettin or Wettin-Habsburg.
Furthermore with all these territories, they could contest the Polish election. Besides it's not like that is new for the Wettins, August the Strong was crowned, because he was the first one to arrive in Cracow, not because he got more votes. So with Austrian, Bohemian and Hungarian help they could convince the Poles to vote wisely... Which could prevent the PLC from being partitioned, so a 'de facto' hereditary Habsburg-Wettin (Or Wettin-Habsburg) isn't such a high price.
 
Last edited:

Valdemar II

Banned
They might call themselves the house of Habsburg-Wettin or Wettin-Habsburg.
Furthermore with all these territories, they could contest the Polish election. Besides it's not like that is new for the Wettins, August the Strong was crowned, because he was earlier in Cracow, not because he got more votes. So with Austrian, Bohemian and Hungarian help they could convince the Poles to vote wisely... Which could prevent the PLC from being partitioned, so a 'de facto' hereditary Habsburg-Wettin (Or Wettin-Habsburg) isn't such a high price.

However other European Powers will be active and want to have some concessions.

And that's the main problem, the Polish throne was harmless in itself, and Saxony wasn't big or strong enough to force absolutism on it, but the powerhouse which are Saxony-Silesia-Austria-Bohemia-Hungary would be able to, and a absolut Commonwealth would be a major European player, put it together with vast possesion of Austrian Habsburgs and Saxony, you have something so big and vast that it beat Charles Vs Empire. No one wish that. Which are why everybody are going to ensure it doesn't happen.

To name, I doubt the Wettins are going to change name they wasn't the Lorraines, they was a historical a major player, while the Lorraines wasn't.
 
Don't see Augustus gaining the Polish Crown TTL. One of the conditions for Austrian support was his acceptance of pragmatic sanction. so it depends on the conditions of the OP..ie. the PS doesn't get passed. I read that as Charles cannot get acceptance within his own lands of the Hapsburg Empire.

If that is the case Augustus's marriage to Maria Josepha makes his heirs the 1st in line of legitimacy to inherit the entirety of the Hapsburg domains. Even if he accepts its meaningless if Charles cannot get it accepted within his own domains.


Even the Empress Anna of Russia is not going to settle for the minor concessions offered her by Augustus OTL as the behemoth that would result would be more than capable of ending the informal influence that Russia currently exerted in the Commonwealth.

Its likely then in that case that either Austria or Russia or both continue as originally agreed with Prussia to support Emmanuel of Portugal instead. If the RAP powers can get him elected,it will probably still be by a minority Sejm
Augustus was only supported by a quarter of the nobility and elected under the protection of that Sejm by the Russians who had entered the country. That won't occur if Russia is not supporting him or has been unable to satisfy the Empress Anna with concessions.

So either Augustus is out, unable to get elected anywhere and without any support by outside powers, or he does and somehow you get a tripartite struggle within Poland-Lithuania which would be interesting I suppose, depending on where the Russians throw their support. Of course if Stanislaw and Emmanuel both concede to the Empress Anna what Augustus did ( hard to see Stanislaw doing that as he is a Polish noble after all) but if so and the Russians sit out deciding to let things play out in Poland and then step in later to pick up the pieces from the inevitable carnage.

Of course there is also the matter of what if Emmanuel refuses to accept if he is only a minority candidate. That leaves the RAP only with Augustus which the potential of a looming Wettin colossus that to the Russians, and probably the Prussians is going to be unpalatable and even a Bourbon and Polish nobility supported Leszczynski is more acceptable ( None of the Bourbon realms directly border the Commonwealth, and Commonwealth's own political organs still currently make it possible for them to gain influence, it will simply require a bit more effort in future, as a side effect it will mean that any future elected king cannot be a foreignor, the resolution passed during the inter rex period.

Since the Bourbon's went nowhere near the Low countries, the maritime powers are likely to remain neutral. So basically the same conflict will result and Bourbon's make substantial gains in the west and in Italy vs the isolated Hapsburgs and Emmanuel re-place Augustus as King of P-L, or in any one of the myriad and confusing political situations that might result in this alternate P-L civil war essentially Stanislaw ends up as the elected king He should be able to reign for another 30 or so years. the question then becomes who succeeds him then. Its probably still Poniatowski but it will still depend on whether his Russian association and Russian influence is as pervasive as OTL. Thats not likely true but could still hold.

Now of course there is the matter of what happens when Charles dies in 1740.
 
Um, isn't the Holy Roman Emperor going to have some sort of say in international affairs during this period? That's a Bavarian, unless I've gone insane, and Bavaria is going to be likely to try to break up this Habsburg-Wettin dominion since it has got itself virtually surrounded.

What's Maria Theresa doing in this situation? Is she just sitting in Lorraine depressed, or does she and her husband have greater ambition? They would be the natural ones to turn to if Austria views Wettin rule as too distant from their own interests

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Top