WI : No Apartheid in SA.

Both were governed from South Africa at the time and the people of the SWA voted in thew 1961 referendum that turned South Africa into a republic, so there might have been some point to the idea of those being part of South Africa.

SWA was actually governed by SA, while Bechuanaland was only governed from SA, an important distinction.

Hmm, some interesting PODs here.
 
If South Africa becomes the Federation of South Africa instead of the Union, as per Marius' suggestion (and I'm surprised this isn't brought up more - in 1910 the legacy of the Boer War was still very real, and a federal republic might have made it easier for South Africa's government to remain unified and not deal with the aborted 1914 revolts), then you could easily enough see the suggestion of the Cape and Natal being more open in terms of voter policies. I can see voting rights being extended in the Cape to colored men by the early 1940s and to Indian men in the late 1940s in Natal, followed by a steady growth in voter rolls until South Africa effectively has universal suffrage by the middle of the 1970s. Integrating southern Rhodesia into the Federation of South Africa in 1922 would also allow Smuts and his allies to retain power in 1924 (Smuts lost that election to Barry Hertzog, who was PM until 1939), which could well also see the beginnings of a unified culture between the English and Afrikaner whites in South Africa. Britain by this point was letting the white dominions on a much longer leash - the Statute of Westminister effectively confirmed the independence of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and South Africa - and so Smuts (and perhaps Hertzog as well) could well lead the idea of a unified "White South African" identity, as opposed to the Afrikaner vs. English divisions which remain in some levels to this day.

I honestly don't know if we will see Natal giving the vote to Indians.

Natal was pretty reactionary.

However, if a qualified franchise works in the Cape, we may see a slow acceptance of the qualified franchise in the other parts of the Union.
 
If Portugal is up for selling Mozambique 1910-26 this might save the faltering republic (as it had constant budget crisis among other problems). Selling off old colonies might even be the way the republic goes to stay afloat, spending the revenue on "bread and theater" for the "people of Lisbon". First off is Mozambique then goes Macao and/or Goa and/or East Timor and last is Angola (I don't think the Azores, Cape Verde or Guinea would be sold but I might be wrong).

[FONT=&quot]A question that pops into my mind is how open Super South Africa would be for white immigration. If it's more multi ethnical and the different "members" of the union is more independent there might be a better chance to get into SA ITTL[/FONT]
 
SWA was actually governed by SA, while Bechuanaland was only governed from SA, an important distinction.

Hmm, some interesting PODs here.

That's true, but I'm thinking here that Britain annexes them in the aftermath of WWII, when Britain doesn't have the time, money or inclination to run the place and they desperately need Pretoria to be on their side.

I honestly don't know if we will see Natal giving the vote to Indians.

Natal was pretty reactionary.

However, if a qualified franchise works in the Cape, we may see a slow acceptance of the qualified franchise in the other parts of the Union.

I had commented on the Indians getting the franchise just to counteract the fact that Natal has South Africa's two largest black tribes (Zulu and Xhosa) having their home territory inside that one province, and enfranchising the Indians would likely be done to get them on the same side as the whites and coloreds. I can see this being done, especially if more of the Indians are like the ones Gandhi led in South Africa in the first couple decades of the 20th Century. Swell the numbers of Indians somewhat and you could conceivably get a fairly influential voting bloc.
 
If Portugal is up for selling Mozambique 1910-26 this might save the faltering republic (as it had constant budget crisis among other problems). Selling off old colonies might even be the way the republic goes to stay afloat, spending the revenue on "bread and theater" for the "people of Lisbon". First off is Mozambique then goes Macao and/or Goa and/or East Timor and last is Angola (I don't think the Azores, Cape Verde or Guinea would be sold but I might be wrong).

East Timor if its sold it would be sold to Australia, and I find even that doubtful. The Timorese wanted to remain with Portugal, as they were like the Moluccans and New Guineans the Dutch had, they wanted nothing to do with Jakarta if at all possible. Goa would only be sold if Macau is, and who is gonna buy Macau? China doesn't have the inclination in the teens and twenties or the money if it did. Britain with Hong Kong next door wouldn't bother.

[FONT=&quot]A question that pops into my mind is how open Super South Africa would be for white immigration. If it's more multi ethnical and the different "members" of the union is more independent there might be a better chance to get into SA ITTL[/FONT]

I think that can be taken as a given, especially if Smuts makes an attempt to bridge the Afrikaner-English gap ITTL. If he can do that and create a "White South African" identity, then its easier for immigration there, and you could get many more whites from Southern Europe. A potentially very big curveball could be taking Germans that Hitler wants out or even European Jews, though the latter is less likely. You'll never get a white majority, of course, but you could conceivably by the early 21st Century have ten or twelve million White South Africans.
 
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East Timor if its sold it would be sold to Australia, and I find even that doubtful. The Timorese wanted to remain with Portugal, as they were like the Moluccans and New Guineans the Dutch had, they wanted nothing to do with Jakarta if at all possible. Goa would only be sold if Macau is, and who is gonna buy Macau? China doesn't have the inclination in the teens and twenties or the money if it did. Britain with Hong Kong next door wouldn't bother.

Macao could be sold to Japan or Italy (Germany maybe?) in the 30is. That or UK or USA (France maybe?) buy it to avoid it going to Japan. I don't know what side would buy Timor but I would Guess the government in Lisbon would not care what they wanted if it's sold.


I think that can be taken as a given, especially if Smuts makes an attempt to bridge the Afrikaner-English gap ITTL. If he can do that and create a "White South African" identity, then its easier for immigration there, and you could get many more whites from Southern Europe. A potentially very big curveball could be taking Germans that Hitler wants out or even European Jews, though the latter is less likely. You'll never get a white majority, of course, but you could conceivably by the early 21st Century have ten or twelve million White South Africans.

I had a vision of Mozambique and Angola filled whit Jews Germany (and the other European countries) forced out in some kind of bizarre Madagascar plan. Jews put on trains for Vichy France and then put on ships bound for the former Portuguese colonies that SA now wants to fill whit White people as fast as possible.
 
I saw an election poster from the 1924 (I think) election.

The poster included an outline of South Africa which included SWA and Bechunaland so they were thought of as SA territory then.

I may be mistaken but I also believe Smuts toyed with the idea of trying to buy Portuguese East Africa (Mozambique).

Actually yes he did, though it wasn't to buy Portuguese East Africa, but to have it traded with Britain for Tanganyika after WWI. I remember reading this in a book on the history of South Africa (must try to find the book again). The idea was floated in the immediate aftermath of WWI. It would have made for a very interesting looking South Africa on a map......
 
Macao could be sold to Japan or Italy (Germany maybe?) in the 30is. That or UK or USA (France maybe?) buy it to avoid it going to Japan. I don't know what side would buy Timor but I would Guess the government in Lisbon would not care what they wanted if it's sold.

The UK isn't gonna bother. If its the 30s, Washington and London would have a shitfit if Germany bought, and I doubt Hitler gave enough of a damn anyways. Italy wouldn't go either. Japan I can see buying it, but the UK is not gonna like that one bit.

I had a vision of Mozambique and Angola filled whit Jews Germany (and the other European countries) forced out in some kind of bizarre Madagascar plan. Jews put on trains for Vichy France and then put on ships bound for the former Portuguese colonies that SA now wants to fill whit White people as fast as possible.

Hitler just wanted the Jews gone, he didn't give a crap how, but there is no way South Africa ever allows this once the war starts. I don't see SA being too willing to integrate Angola, either. Mozambique, sure, but anti-Semitism wasn't exactly uncommon in 1930s South Africa. I don't see the Jews being a particularly high priority, but if Smuts and his government allow them in, then they would almost certainly both get goodwill out of it. I can just imagine Pretoria making a big deal of the MS St. Louis docking in Cape Town with nearly a thousand Jewish refugees....
 
The UK isn't gonna bother. If its the 30s, Washington and London would have a shitfit if Germany bought, and I doubt Hitler gave enough of a damn anyways. Italy wouldn't go either. Japan I can see buying it, but the UK is not gonna like that one bit..


I didn't think Germany would either. Mussolini might buy it to get some extra colonies but Japan is the most likely Buyer in the 20is and 30is of both Macao and East Timor. If UK (and Australia) don't like it they could simply buy it first.


Hitler just wanted the Jews gone, he didn't give a crap how, but there is no way South Africa ever allows this once the war starts. I don't see SA being too willing to integrate Angola, either. Mozambique, sure, but anti-Semitism wasn't exactly uncommon in 1930s South Africa. I don't see the Jews being a particularly high priority, but if Smuts and his government allow them in, then they would almost certainly both get goodwill out of it. I can just imagine Pretoria making a big deal of the MS St. Louis docking in Cape Town with nearly a thousand Jewish refugees....


There is a difference between anti Semitism and bigotry. I would think most ITTL SA whites would be bigots about Jews but prefer them to the native Africans and whit larger territories (South Rhodesia, Mozambique and what not) there might be a lot more Natives than even the most Liberal SA politician of the 1930is might find comfortable. That and the cape could become somewhat of a melting pot where inter racial relations might be more acceptable by the 60is, a SA "San Francisco" analog for mixed couples.

The SA Madagascar plan was only a fancy of my imagination for the bizarre. But a more open SA from the 20is for Jews might butterfly many things about the anti Semitism spread in Europe prior to 1933.
 
Actually yes he did, though it wasn't to buy Portuguese East Africa, but to have it traded with Britain for Tanganyika after WWI. I remember reading this in a book on the history of South Africa (must try to find the book again). The idea was floated in the immediate aftermath of WWI. It would have made for a very interesting looking South Africa on a map......

A trade would not cost UK anything and one of Portugal's war aims (why they participated) were to get the control of the Colonies back.

António José de Almeida seems like the ideal candidate to hold the First Portuguese republic together. He could paint the trade as a success of sorts for Portugal and the Republic. He had been both Interior minister and minister to the Colonies (and PM) before so he would know a bit about what he sold and what's to be gained. The prestige could be used to avoid a lot of turbulence post war.
 
I had commented on the Indians getting the franchise just to counteract the fact that Natal has South Africa's two largest black tribes (Zulu and Xhosa) having their home territory inside that one province, and enfranchising the Indians would likely be done to get them on the same side as the whites and coloreds. I can see this being done, especially if more of the Indians are like the ones Gandhi led in South Africa in the first couple decades of the 20th Century. Swell the numbers of Indians somewhat and you could conceivably get a fairly influential voting bloc.

Just on a point of fact here, the Xhosa heartland is in the Eastern Cape, Natal is overwhelmingly Zulu, with large Indian and white minorities, while Xhosas probably make up less than five percent of the population, mainly around Matatiele. By contract, in the Eastern Cape Xhosas make up more than 80% of the population.
 
Better world cricket and rugby.

SA also built some pretty good musclecars, so perhaps a more global musclecar era.
 
Better world cricket and rugby.

SA also built some pretty good musclecars, so perhaps a more global musclecar era.

What?!?!

World champs at rugby twice and probably the best Test cricket side in the world now (we will have clarity on that after we tour England later this year).

How much better do you want us to be at those two sports?

:)
 
So, going back to that link about liberalism in the Cape. It seems that we would really need some sort of stronger hand from London to stop a rollback, let alone an extension of the franchise. Which seems unlikely and even if it did happen, then there would be a lot more conflict with London, which London wouldn't really be seeking
 
So, going back to that link about liberalism in the Cape. It seems that we would really need some sort of stronger hand from London to stop a rollback, let alone an extension of the franchise. Which seems unlikely and even if it did happen, then there would be a lot more conflict with London, which London wouldn't really be seeking

No, I don't think we need London interference.

As I said, have a looser federation, with an extension of the franchise in the Cape, and agitation for a qualified franchise in the liberal places in the rest of the country, such as Johannesburg.

And, if there is a looser federation, this may be the butterfly that leads to Southern Rhodesia joining the union, getting rid of the Nat victory of 1948. In addition, Rhodesia joining the Union may then see Smuts's South Africa Party remain in power from 1924.

We may see other opposition parties from, not explicity based on Afrikaner nationalism, such as the National Party.
 
No, I don't think we need London interference.

As I said, have a looser federation, with an extension of the franchise in the Cape, and agitation for a qualified franchise in the liberal places in the rest of the country, such as Johannesburg.

And, if there is a looser federation, this may be the butterfly that leads to Southern Rhodesia joining the union, getting rid of the Nat victory of 1948. In addition, Rhodesia joining the Union may then see Smuts's South Africa Party remain in power from 1924.

We may see other opposition parties from, not explicity based on Afrikaner nationalism, such as the National Party.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring strictly to Cape Province, as set out in that article you linked earlier, as opposed to any wider, long term implications for rest of the *country
 
What?!?!

World champs at rugby twice and probably the best Test cricket side in the world now (we will have clarity on that after we tour England later this year).

How much better do you want us to be at those two sports?

:)

We don`t need you to be better (it would be better for us if you were worse), the competition will be better with another world class national team in the mix, especially in the southern hemisphere.
 
If we use a 1948 POD to get rid of apartheid, what happens next? A major issue is that for every election going forward, if the NP wins they just vote apartheid in at that point. So what's needed are changes so that the NP can't ever win. The non-apartheid parties have to do well enough that the NP can't govern alone, but would need a coalition partner who would not support them in such legislation. Electoral reform is absolutely essential. A combination of expanded coloured enfranchisement and British immigration might do it, but the UP really needs to be invigorated. Smuts was running out of the energy in '48, and the UP needed new leadership.

At the same time, the UP must still stand up for some form of white control of South Africa. If it moved too quickly to bring in blacks into the government (and in the late 1940s and 1950s, "too quickly" would still be glacially slow), they scare off too many whites. The UP has to do a balancing act of slowly enfranchising non-whites, but at a moderate pace. This will work for a little while, but eventually these slow reforms create problems of their own. You raise people's expectations faster than you can fulfill them. So while I think a UP South Africa might do well throughout the 1950s, but the 1960s we will see more and more unrest as black South Africans demand more improvements very quickly. By that time, it might be too late for an apartheid state to form, but there will be major disturbances and some kind of political solution must be found.

We might see major areas of South Africa given their own independence in a bid to 1) meet demands for greater black political involvement, and 2) allow whites to remain in power in the rest of South Africa. These would be a kind of super bantustans which would include more land and be internationally recognized. We may see most of the eastern half of the country given independence (perhaps with some kind of economic union). There is also the possibility that majority white/coloured areas in the east might be given their independence as well as a separate Boer republic (basically the Free State province + Johannesburg). That would leave South Africa with only (what is now) the Northern and Western Cape provinces and perhaps some exclaves around Durban. These would only be general borders of course, the specific borders would be decided by negotiation.

If South Africa doesn't split, I see very bad political disturbances because you still have black frustration, but without the coercive power of the apartheid state to keep the peace. I'm thinking of an Algerian Civil War situation

If that happens, I expect the rump South Africa to do well. I expect severe problems in any Boer republic. Any independent black states will probably be run as well as the rest of Africa after independence, which isn't too good. But it's always possible one or all of them might surprise and be run as well as Botswana.
 
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