WI No Alexander III or Nicholas II?

In 1865, when Grand Duke Alexander of Russia died, his fiance Princess Dagmar of Denmark was greatly distraught, and her family worried about her health; in OTL, she married his brother, the new heir, who went on to become Alexander III, and their first born son became Nicholas II.

My general idea: Suppose Dagmar dies early 1866, Nicholas II is never born. The other Alexander, meanwhile, somehow dies childless before 1881, when his father is still assassinated. That would mean this guy -- who I know absolutely nothing about -- becomes Tsar. Except that he has a son, Cyril, who OTL became pretender to the throne, and a brother who toured the US and Japan.

How plausible is this? What does this mean for Russia?
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
If Nicolai Alexandrovich had survived, Dagmar would have married him, and we would not have Alexander III or Nicolai II. (Yes, Nicolai Alexandrovich would have become Nicolai II, but we'd not have the same Nicolai II). Much easier way.
 
yourworstnightmare said:
If Nicolai Alexandrovich had survived, Dagmar would have married him, and we would not have Alexander III or Nicolai II. (Yes, Nicolai Alexandrovich would have become Nicolai II, but we'd not have the same Nicolai II). Much easier way.

Agreed. It would be much easier to have Grand Duke Nicholas Alexandrovitch survive. With luck, he might turn out just like his father, Czar Alexander II. This could lead to a Political Reformation of the Russian Empire.

Anyway, if we take the first scenario, this would lead to Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovitch becomes Czar Vladimir I (I checked, there are curiously no Czar named Vladimir...). Besides that, I can't really say anything.
On a side note, the son of Grand Duke Vladimir, Cyril Vladimirovitch, became the head of the Russian Imperial House OTL in 1924.
 
If Nicolai Alexandrovich had survived, Dagmar would have married him, and we would not have Alexander III or Nicolai II. (Yes, Nicolai Alexandrovich would have become Nicolai II, but we'd not have the same Nicolai II). Much easier way.

Yeah... I guess I was looking for an alternate

With luck, he might turn out just like his father, Czar Alexander II

Does anyone know if Vladimir had a similar chance of doing so? Or was he more like his conservative brother?
 
What I can recall about Vladimir are the negative things in his life - his divorce and his remarriage, which was not viewed at all well by Nicholas II, and that during the Revolution he marched with the workers, got tagged The Red Grand Duke, and his later claims at being pretender were marred by this, possibly by both because Nicholas II's strict understanding of succession laws meant no divorcee ought to be able to succeed.

Now, you have of course omitted ALL of these from the timeline! But what are we left with? Possibly some indication as to character

IIRC the conservative brother he had was Serge (blown up OTL by an anarchist bomb) whilst if I vaguely recall correctly the other one you mentioned was renownded for threesomes...

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Grey Wolf
 
What I can recall about Vladimir are the negative things in his life - his divorce and his remarriage, which was not viewed at all well by Nicholas II, and that during the Revolution he marched with the workers, got tagged The Red Grand Duke, and his later claims at being pretender were marred by this, possibly by both because Nicholas II's strict understanding of succession laws meant no divorcee ought to be able to succeed.

Now, you have of course omitted ALL of these from the timeline! But what are we left with? Possibly some indication as to character...

Hardly -- I just didn't know any of it (fascinating, BTW... any sources, per chance?)

IIRC the conservative brother he had was Serge (blown up OTL by an anarchist bomb) whilst if I vaguely recall correctly the other one you mentioned was renownded for threesomes...

Plus his only son was technically illegitimate, so if, for some reason there's a problem with Vladimir's line, it Serge would be in line...
 
Couple of points:

The only requirement for a legal marriage for Russian Dynasts as promulgated by Paul I and amended by his successors and enacted into the Fundamental Rules of the Russian Empire in 1905 were
a) Equal marriage - the bride or groom of a Russian Dynast had to be of equal status (ie belonging to a reigning or mediatised house)
b) At some point it also became law that the wife of the heir to the Russian throne had to be of the Orthodox Faith
Later Nicholas II, fed up with the behaviour of his family, clarified it further by making it illegal for a Grand DUke to marry someone not of equal birth - he was tired of being asked permission that he couldn't and wouldn't give. It is debated whether he also made it legal for a prince or princess of Russia (the great grandchild of a sovereign) to marry someone not of equal birth and pass their rights to the succession to any children of such a marriage.
Vladimir Alexandrovich was the third son of Alexander II - he married, with permission, Marie of Mecklenburg-Shwerin - she didn't convert until long after the birth of her children. However she was listed as Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna of Russia and all four of their sons (Alexander died in infancy, Kyril, Boris and Andrei) were listed as Grand Duke's with full dynastic rights.
I think the marriage you are considering is that of Kyril Vladimirovich. Kyril was in love with his first cousin Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg Gotha and Edinbrough - Russian church law forbade first cousins to marry (though it happened and the Emperor could have dispensed the impediment had he wished - but Nicholas II and Alexander III were both fairly strict - Nicholas would also refuse his brother Michael permission to marry Victoria Melita's sister Beatrice) however her grandmother Queen Victoria pushed her into marrying Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse. After the Queen's death the couple divorced and Victoria Melita married Kyril.
Nicholas II was furious, partially because they were first cousins and because he hadn't given his consent, - the family in particularly his uncle Grand Duke Vladimir and Victoria's mother his aunt Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna were annoyed. Nicholas' wife Alexandra was Ernst of Hesse's sister and the family blamed her for his attitude. Victoria Melita's divorce wasn't a legal barrier to her remarriage into the dynasty - divorce was becoming common in Russia and Russian church law didn't outlaw it completely - however both the Empress and the Dowager strongly disapproved of divorce.
Eventually Nicholas caved in and the couple were permitted to return to Russia - she was formally listed as a Grand Duchess and their daughters (their son was born after the Revolution) were listed as Princesses of Russia (as the great grand daughters of an Emperor).
The Russian succession from Alexander II
Nicholas Alexandrovich (d 1865), engaged to Dagmar of Denmark (Maria Feodorovna)
Alexander III (d 1894), married Dagmar of Denmark (Maria Feodorovna), had issue
a) Nicholas II (murd 1918)
b) Alexander (b 1869 and 1870)
c) George (d 1899)
d) Michael (murd 1918) married morganaticaly to Natalia Wulfurt (twice divorced) the couple were exiled and only returned to Russia during the First World War.
Vladimir Alexandrovich (died 1909), married Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Maria Pavlovna), had issue
a) Alexander Vladimirovich (d 1877)
b) Kyril Vladimirovich (d 1938) married Victoria Melita and had issue
c) Boris Vladimirovich of Russia (d 1943) married his mistress in 1919
d) Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia (d 1956) married his long standing mistress, the dancer, Mathilda Kchessinska in 1921
Alexei Alexandrovich (d 1908), - one son born of his marriage to Alexandra Zhukovskaya - marriage was declared invalid by Alexander II.
Sergei Alexandrovich (murd 1905), married Elisabeth of Hesse (Elizabeth Feodorovna) no issue
Paul Alexandrovich (murd 1919), married 1889, Alexandra of Greece and Denmark (Alexandra Georgievna), had issue
a) Dimitri Pavlovich
(Grand Duke Paul married secondly in 1902, Olga Karnovich, a divorcee - the couple were exiled and didn't return until the first world war marriage regarded as morganatic and had issue)
 
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Thanks for clearing a lot of that up :)

So, if as the OP states, Dagmar of Denmark dies shortly after Nicholas Alexandrovich, and (OTL) Alexander (III) dies childless (no Nicholas II or any of his siblings) before Alexander II is assassinated (as OTL) in 1881, that would leave Vladimir Alexandrovich to assume the throne.

Assuming his first son still dies as a toddler, that leaves Cyril to become the successor at age five. It's not a stretch to say he could turn out to be a different person entirely; even at the most similar, any permission for marriages, divorces, etc he needs now comes through his father the Tsar.

Assuming Vladimir dies same time as OTL, his reign would be 1881-1909. Does anyone want to take a guess as to what it will be like?
 
Couple of issues with the OP - Dagmar was generally very healthy, like most of her family she was pretty healthy throughout her long life and almost all Christian IX's children lived into old age - she was in love with Nicholas but she wasn't ignorant nor was she sick to the point of death,.
You have an alternate suggestion
At Nicholas Alexandrovich's death, Alexander felt completely incapable of being the heir - he was also involved with a lady of the court Marie Metcherstsky whom he wished to marry - his father put an end to it and eventually he did propose to Dagmar - who was under pressure to accept him herself - she was already receiving Orthodox instruction and her ambitious parents were keen on the match.
But if Alexander disgraces himself and on hearing of his brother's death he elopes with the Metchertsky and remains abroad - legally he will still inherit but you could probably have him forced to renounce his claim and you have the same situation that occured when Alexander I died and his morganatically married brother Constantine confirmed his private renunciation and was instead succeeded by the next brother Nicholas I - that leaves Vladimir.
(although the pressure will be then on Vladimir to marry Dagmar - the ages were still acceptable and Alexander II and his wife were fond of her and regarded her as their daughter already - she also had advantages that she came from a poor family, and a marital alliance with the recently defeated Denmark meant it wouldn't be regarded as a political match.)

Unlike Alexander III, Vladimir was more forgiving and accepting of Alexander II's hasty remarriage to a commoner, he might also have been more liberal but not much more - his reaction to Alexander II's assasination will probably be very similar to that of OTL's Alexander III's
 
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