WI: NO AFL?

Does your team do better in this reality?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 35.7%
  • No

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • I dont like American Football

    Votes: 12 42.9%

  • Total voters
    28
You didn't specify when the NFL would have realigned or added the wild card, so if we're going by the 1969 lineup, Washington and Pittsburgh would still both have been in the Eastern Conference in 1972 and couldn't have played in the championship game.
 
I don't have a strong position (mainly because my local team, the Redskins, has been so wretched the last decade or so overall :( ), but I'd think the quality of teams overall in this alternate NFL would go up, if simply because there'd be far more competition among top college players for far fewer spots in the premier American football league.
 
You didn't specify when the NFL would have realigned or added the wild card, so if we're going by the 1969 lineup, Washington and Pittsburgh would still both have been in the Eastern Conference in 1972 and couldn't have played in the championship game.

I had them move to a single Conference format. I also have to change the NFL Championships. I did an extensive season by season simulation of the league.
 
I would like to add my 2 cents in.

While I agree in this scenario that Hunt would´ve gotten his team, when thinking about the how and why in a no-AFL TL one needs to take in to consideration on how stubborn and closed-minded the NFL, and for that matter the NHL, owners were at this time. While working on a all-sports TL right now, I had ran into this delema; how to open the NFL, and NHL up to earlier expansion killing of the rival-league era, at least as we would recognize it. The one plausible response that I could find would come a completely different sport, which was fine by me.

That sport would be baseball.

I see a possible pod in, say, 1949; the Brooklyn Dodgers comeback from 2-0 down against the Yanks to win the WS in 6 exciting games. The Dodgers, backed by O´Malley, go onto win 5 more series´ in the next decade. Then when the Braves move to Milwaukee, the Browns to Baltimore, and the A´s to KC and the O´Malley´s begin to complain about Ebbets Field, they eventually get a new stadium in Brooklyn to open in 1957; as they are the darlings of NYC at the time.

This would leave the Giants searching, while they could move to Minnesota, Houston or Toronto, none of these towns have nothing really new to offer and moving out west would prove to be a challenge as no other team was really looking to relocate at this time. A solution could have proven closer to them than one might imagine; Jersey City. The Dodgers had played there a few games during the mid-50´s and attendance was better than what the NYG´s were getting at the Polo Grounds. They move a portion of the schedule there in 57 and 58 and by 59 they would evacuate for Roosevelt Stadium (expanded to 45k) for good.

This leaves a void on the left coast, and PCL. They were weighing their options in OTL, possibly declaring major-league status or at least a lucurative broadcast deal. Without the Dodgers or Giants going there in TTL I feel they could try it, or at least the Angels, Bears, Padres, Rainiers, Seals and Stars could´ve.

I feel that had they attempted this and, at least, threatened to throw some money around in order to lure away some ¨stars¨ (ie: most likely some ok players and depth players) away from the eastern teams; the NL and AL owners would´ve panicked, crying that these western bastards want to destroy all we hold dear;¨ just as the NFL owners in 1959, and eventually brokering a merger in 58, 59 or 60. Let´s say the LA Stars and SF Seals join the NL, while the LA Angels and the Seattle Rainiers are put in the AL.

Why do I bring baseball up in a NFL TL? Because I feel the NFL owners, and head brass would need a outside wake-up call to to make them take notice of their threat-level radars before it would be too late. NFL and NHL owners, at this time, were probably the most stubborn of all pro-sports owners; not so much out of pure greed - although there was that as well, just look at Vancouver´s NHL expansion bid nixed by the aBuds and Habs because they were unwilling to divide the CBC TV money a third-way- but because these owners had been around forever in a sense. Most had one-way or another survived the shock of Black October, the financial hardships of the 30´s, or the player shortages of WW2-and in some cases all 3. These men were skeptical of any outsider who wanted into their precious little circle. And in terms of Dallas and NFL football, a city that they saw fail miserably only 7 seasons before. Therefore, I feel that Bell, Roselle, and Co. would need a situation to parallel in order to get their gears moving faster.

Now back to NFL 1959. In TTL I see the league, after meeting with Hunt and receiving of his threat as well as possible allies, I see the Cardinals and Bell announcing a limited period of negotiation to outside bidders; ie Hunt, Adams, Boston, Denver and the two Minnesota groups. As well as sending a memo to all interested parties mentioned to be a part of the proposed AFL that the league was committed to looking at expansion and developing a plan for growth for the 60´s, and was willing to sell shares of current to the parties not interested in expansion (this was a peace-offering actually given to the AFL owners before the opening season, and honestly, for differing reasons, I see the NY group, and the Hiltons taking up this offer). Therefore.......

I see the Chicago Cardinals relocating to Dallas in time for fall-1960. The new Texans would hire Tom Landry as their new head coach. I say this because he was Hunt´s first choice to coach the Texans in OTL but Landry refused because he didn´t want to go to the more inferior league, only to immediately accept the Cowboys job. Of course they wouldn´t become the ´Boys right away but I see over a period of seasons and drafts, player turnover, and such, the team would resemble them more so then the Cardinals or Chiefs. One question that interests me is: originally Hunt was thinking about blue and burnt orange uniforms for Dallas but eventually choice the red and gold ensemble. How would it effect, say, the Oilers in TTL? As for the 60 season; I see the team having a similar record, 6-5-1, as the STL Cardinals; however I see them drawing closer 30,000 a game then the 24,500 the Texans did during the first AFL campaign. Which would be equal to a few other NFL teams.

During the end of the season, I can see Hunt talking to the league brass, expressing his belief that with a geographic rival, which was in fashion for the pro leagues and expansion in the 60´s, the Texans and the NFL in Texas would explode in popularity. Thus, as the league keeping it´s word with expansion:

1961: Houston Oilers owned by Bud Adams and playing at Rice Stadium, until the opening of TTL´s Astrodome.
1962: Minnesota Vikings; because this was the only city other than Dallas that had multiple parties interested in bringing a team there. And would play at Metropolitian Field.
1966: Atlanta Falcons; another ¨hot¨ market with the brand-new Fulton County Stadium.
1966: St. Louis Gunners; owned by Ralph Wilson, who I feel would eventually desire his own team after being part owner in Detroit in any TL, and would play out of the relatively new Busch Stadium. With the influence of Wilson´s presence help propel the selection over such cities as; Cincinnati, Seattle and Miami.
1967: Cincinnati Bengals; as in the case in St. Louis the familiar presence of Paul Brown is the clincher to getting Cincy a team, they would play out 6 year old Ohio Park (a butterfly I like dating back to the baseball divergence :eek:)
1967: Miami Dolphins; owned by Joe Robbie and would call the Orange Bowl home until the 80´s.
1971: New England Patriots; the Boston-area finally gets a squad with the ownership group that dates back to 59, striking a deal to build a stadium in Foxboro to open in 71 or 72.
1971: Seattle Sailors; another long desired expansion canidate gets a team. A heavy favourite dating back to ´66, financing and ownership instability had kept a team out of 4 year-old Oceanfront Stadium. (another butterfly thanks to the presence of the Rainiers)
1975: New Orleans Buccaneers; the Superdome, and David Dixon finally gets him dream, an NFL tenant.
1975: San Diego Suns; this slot was schedule to go to Tampa, howver when the owner went belly-up thanks to his other ventures and a bad divorce a replacement was needed; and a group was quickly dispached to put a team in the new stadium in so-cal.


AMERICAN CONFERENCE
Central Division
Chicago
Detroit
Green Bay
Minnesota
St. Louis
Coastal Division
Baltimore
Los Angeles
Miami
San Diego
San Francisco
Seattle

NATIONAL CONFERENCE
Capital Division
Dallas Texans
New England
New York
Philadelphia
Washington
Continental Division
Atlanta
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Houston
New Orleans
Pittsburgh

Final thought, as for the explosion of rival-leagues; I believe they would come sooner in TTL, to bad for Dennis Murphy. But the main difference would be thatb their power-bases would probably be located on the west coast. I can see a stronger American Basketball League form in 60 or 61 still and the Western Hockey League, galvinized by the PCL and with strong ties to Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego could take the role of the WHA 7 or 8 years sooner. The only sport I can see Murphy getting a chance at would be, ironically, football. With fewer teams in TTL and expansion in the air I could see him try to form an AFL/WFLish league as early as 1966 or 67, which would coincide with two events; his formation of the ABA in OTL and the surge of expansion in TTL.

Well that was my 2 cents worth, unfortunately now it feels like $20.00 worth :eek:, sorry, but I hope I´ve added some insight onto the subject, that greatly fascinates me, and that it makes a bit of sense to everyone.

Jab, and anyone else who is a sports fan here, if you could pm me when you get a chance, I have a few things I would greatly like advise for a few sport TLs.

Best Regards,
Michael
 
Broncos and Firebirds.

I would like to add my 2 cents in.

While I agree in this scenario that Hunt would´ve gotten his team, when thinking about the how and why in a no-AFL TL one needs to take in to consideration on how stubborn and closed-minded the NFL, and for that matter the NHL, owners were at this time. While working on a all-sports TL right now, I had ran into this delema; how to open the NFL, and NHL up to earlier expansion killing of the rival-league era, at least as we would recognize it. The one plausible response that I could find would come a completely different sport, which was fine by me.

That sport would be baseball.

I see a possible pod in, say, 1949; the Brooklyn Dodgers comeback from 2-0 down against the Yanks to win the WS in 6 exciting games. The Dodgers, backed by O´Malley, go onto win 5 more series´ in the next decade. Then when the Braves move to Milwaukee, the Browns to Baltimore, and the A´s to KC and the O´Malley´s begin to complain about Ebbets Field, they eventually get a new stadium in Brooklyn to open in 1957; as they are the darlings of NYC at the time.

This would leave the Giants searching, while they could move to Minnesota, Houston or Toronto, none of these towns have nothing really new to offer and moving out west would prove to be a challenge as no other team was really looking to relocate at this time. A solution could have proven closer to them than one might imagine; Jersey City. The Dodgers had played there a few games during the mid-50´s and attendance was better than what the NYG´s were getting at the Polo Grounds. They move a portion of the schedule there in 57 and 58 and by 59 they would evacuate for Roosevelt Stadium (expanded to 45k) for good.

This leaves a void on the left coast, and PCL. They were weighing their options in OTL, possibly declaring major-league status or at least a lucurative broadcast deal. Without the Dodgers or Giants going there in TTL I feel they could try it, or at least the Angels, Bears, Padres, Rainiers, Seals and Stars could´ve.

I feel that had they attempted this and, at least, threatened to throw some money around in order to lure away some ¨stars¨ (ie: most likely some ok players and depth players) away from the eastern teams; the NL and AL owners would´ve panicked, crying that these western bastards want to destroy all we hold dear;¨ just as the NFL owners in 1959, and eventually brokering a merger in 58, 59 or 60. Let´s say the LA Stars and SF Seals join the NL, while the LA Angels and the Seattle Rainiers are put in the AL.

Why do I bring baseball up in a NFL TL? Because I feel the NFL owners, and head brass would need a outside wake-up call to to make them take notice of their threat-level radars before it would be too late. NFL and NHL owners, at this time, were probably the most stubborn of all pro-sports owners; not so much out of pure greed - although there was that as well, just look at Vancouver´s NHL expansion bid nixed by the aBuds and Habs because they were unwilling to divide the CBC TV money a third-way- but because these owners had been around forever in a sense. Most had one-way or another survived the shock of Black October, the financial hardships of the 30´s, or the player shortages of WW2-and in some cases all 3. These men were skeptical of any outsider who wanted into their precious little circle. And in terms of Dallas and NFL football, a city that they saw fail miserably only 7 seasons before. Therefore, I feel that Bell, Roselle, and Co. would need a situation to parallel in order to get their gears moving faster.

Now back to NFL 1959. In TTL I see the league, after meeting with Hunt and receiving of his threat as well as possible allies, I see the Cardinals and Bell announcing a limited period of negotiation to outside bidders; ie Hunt, Adams, Boston, Denver and the two Minnesota groups. As well as sending a memo to all interested parties mentioned to be a part of the proposed AFL that the league was committed to looking at expansion and developing a plan for growth for the 60´s, and was willing to sell shares of current to the parties not interested in expansion (this was a peace-offering actually given to the AFL owners before the opening season, and honestly, for differing reasons, I see the NY group, and the Hiltons taking up this offer). Therefore.......

I see the Chicago Cardinals relocating to Dallas in time for fall-1960. The new Texans would hire Tom Landry as their new head coach. I say this because he was Hunt´s first choice to coach the Texans in OTL but Landry refused because he didn´t want to go to the more inferior league, only to immediately accept the Cowboys job. Of course they wouldn´t become the ´Boys right away but I see over a period of seasons and drafts, player turnover, and such, the team would resemble them more so then the Cardinals or Chiefs. One question that interests me is: originally Hunt was thinking about blue and burnt orange uniforms for Dallas but eventually choice the red and gold ensemble. How would it effect, say, the Oilers in TTL? As for the 60 season; I see the team having a similar record, 6-5-1, as the STL Cardinals; however I see them drawing closer 30,000 a game then the 24,500 the Texans did during the first AFL campaign. Which would be equal to a few other NFL teams.

During the end of the season, I can see Hunt talking to the league brass, expressing his belief that with a geographic rival, which was in fashion for the pro leagues and expansion in the 60´s, the Texans and the NFL in Texas would explode in popularity. Thus, as the league keeping it´s word with expansion:

1961: Houston Oilers owned by Bud Adams and playing at Rice Stadium, until the opening of TTL´s Astrodome.
1962: Minnesota Vikings; because this was the only city other than Dallas that had multiple parties interested in bringing a team there. And would play at Metropolitian Field.
1966: Atlanta Falcons; another ¨hot¨ market with the brand-new Fulton County Stadium.
1966: St. Louis Gunners; owned by Ralph Wilson, who I feel would eventually desire his own team after being part owner in Detroit in any TL, and would play out of the relatively new Busch Stadium. With the influence of Wilson´s presence help propel the selection over such cities as; Cincinnati, Seattle and Miami.
1967: Cincinnati Bengals; as in the case in St. Louis the familiar presence of Paul Brown is the clincher to getting Cincy a team, they would play out 6 year old Ohio Park (a butterfly I like dating back to the baseball divergence :eek:)
1967: Miami Dolphins; owned by Joe Robbie and would call the Orange Bowl home until the 80´s.
1971: New England Patriots; the Boston-area finally gets a squad with the ownership group that dates back to 59, striking a deal to build a stadium in Foxboro to open in 71 or 72.
1971: Seattle Sailors; another long desired expansion canidate gets a team. A heavy favourite dating back to ´66, financing and ownership instability had kept a team out of 4 year-old Oceanfront Stadium. (another butterfly thanks to the presence of the Rainiers)
1975: New Orleans Buccaneers; the Superdome, and David Dixon finally gets him dream, an NFL tenant.
1975: San Diego Suns; this slot was schedule to go to Tampa, howver when the owner went belly-up thanks to his other ventures and a bad divorce a replacement was needed; and a group was quickly dispached to put a team in the new stadium in so-cal.


AMERICAN CONFERENCE
Central Division
Chicago
Detroit
Green Bay
Minnesota
St. Louis
Coastal Division
Baltimore
Los Angeles
Miami
San Diego
San Francisco
Seattle

NATIONAL CONFERENCE
Capital Division
Dallas Texans
New England
New York
Philadelphia
Washington
Continental Division
Atlanta
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Houston
New Orleans
Pittsburgh

Final thought, as for the explosion of rival-leagues; I believe they would come sooner in TTL, to bad for Dennis Murphy. But the main difference would be thatb their power-bases would probably be located on the west coast. I can see a stronger American Basketball League form in 60 or 61 still and the Western Hockey League, galvinized by the PCL and with strong ties to Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego could take the role of the WHA 7 or 8 years sooner. The only sport I can see Murphy getting a chance at would be, ironically, football. With fewer teams in TTL and expansion in the air I could see him try to form an AFL/WFLish league as early as 1966 or 67, which would coincide with two events; his formation of the ABA in OTL and the surge of expansion in TTL.

Well that was my 2 cents worth, unfortunately now it feels like $20.00 worth :eek:, sorry, but I hope I´ve added some insight onto the subject, that greatly fascinates me, and that it makes a bit of sense to everyone.

Jab, and anyone else who is a sports fan here, if you could pm me when you get a chance, I have a few things I would greatly like advise for a few sport TLs.

Best Regards,
Michael

If the baseball Giants moved to New Jersey, I wonder how long it would have taken for them and the NFL Giants to build a new stadium. Although, if the Dodgers get the dome in Brooklyn, there is still that Flushing site that Robert Moses liked, and maybe the NFL Giants move there eventually.

As for the Pats, I am not sure if they would have been called New England in this reality, or if they would have built the stadium in Foxborough. They only used that site as a last resort so the team wouldn't be moved.

And, I wonder how Denver gets into the NFL in this reality? Merger from a new league? Expansion? Maybe they could get an expansion team for the 1985 season. They would call it the Broncos, and it will be owned by Pat Bowlen. They would play at Folsom Field on UC's campus before moving into a brand new stadium in Downtown Denver that would open in time for the 1987 season. You could also have Phoenix come in with them. The team would be named the Firebirds, would be coached by Bart Starr, and would play in Sun Devil Stadium until the stadium on the Gila Indian Reservation is ready in time for the 1987 or 88 season.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Basically the premise is that the league never survives Year one. Im writing out the list of NFL Championships as a result. Its very rough but heah it was just on the spot.

NFL Championships
1970. Baltimore Colts over Dallas Cowboys
1971. Dallas Cowboys over Baltimore Colts
1972. Washington Redskins over Pittsburgh Steelers
1973. Minnesota Vikings over Dallas Cowboys
1974. Pittsburgh Steelers over Minnesota Vikings
1975. Dallas Cowboys over Pittsburgh Steelers
1976. Minnesota Vikings over Pittsburgh Steelers
1977. Dallas Cowboys over Minnesota Vikings
1978. Pittsburgh Steelers over Dallas Cowboys
1979. Pittsburgh Steelers over Los Angeles Rams
1980. Philadelphia Eagles over Dallas Cowboys
1981. San Francisco 49ers over Dallas Cowboys
1982. Washington Redskins over Dallas Cowboys
1983. Washington Redskins over San Francisco 49ers
1984. San Francisco 49ers over Chicago Bears
1985. Chicago Bears over Los Angeles Rams
1986. New York Giants over Washington Redskins
1987. Washington Redskins over Cleveland Browns
1988. San Francisco 49ers over Chicago Bears
1989. San Francisco 49ers over Cleveland Browns
1990. New York Giants over San Francisco 49ers
1991. Washington Redskins over Detroit Lions
1992. Dallas Cowboys over San Francisco 49ers
1993. Dallas Cowboys over San Francisco 49ers
1994. San Francisco 49ers over Dallas Cowboys
1995. Dallas Cowboys over Pittsburgh Steelers
1996. Green Bay Packers over San Francisco 49ers
1997. Green Bay Packers over San Francisco 49ers
1998. Atlanta Falcons over Minnesota Vikings
1999. Phoenix Rams over Washington Redskins
2000. New York Giants over Minnesota Vikings
2001. Phoenix Rams over Pittsburgh Steelers
2002. Philadelphia Eagles over San Francisco 49ers
2003. Miami Colts over Philadelphia Eagles
2004. Philadelphia Eagles over Pittsburgh Steelers
2005. Pittsburgh Steelers over Chicago Bears
Don't know about the NFL allignment, but some political ramifications will happen.

Off the top of my head, Jack Kemp ends up as a Phys ED teacher in some California high school after an NFL career which saw him cut by five teams.
 
If there was no AFL, someone with money would invent one (the USFL, WFL, XFL, All America Conference, whatever). The market was obviously there for more professional football teams than the original NFL could (or would at the time) provide. I also think the AFL, and with it the instant expansion of professional football to a dozen other markets, is a major factor leading to the rise of professional football to the status it enjoys today. Without the AFL, I doubt, professional football would never have supplanted major league baseball (or major college football for that matter) as the most popular sport in the US.

As an aside, I always think the AFL got shafted in the merger. It should not have been forced to accept three NFL teams (Browns, Colts, Steelers). Rather, three expansion franchises should have been approved for the AFL to make the two leagues be the same size. It should never have accepted the name "NFL" for the merged league. A new name, like "Major League Football" should have been established with the AFL and NFL being the two separate leagues.
 
At the time of the merger, there were 16 teams in the NFL and 10 in the AFL, The three teams coming over balanced the two conferences. Adding three expansion teams would have made it 16-13.

What happened was that Carroll Rosenbloom of the Colts wanted to build a rivalry with the Jets after Super Bowl III and was tired of travelling across country to play his division games. (He had been in the Coastal division with Los Angeles and San Francisco in 1969).

Cleveland owner Art Modell, who liked the idea of the $3 million stipend for switching conferences, agreed to move if Art Rooney and the Steelers would come with him. Rooney was good friends with Modell and figured the AFL would bring him a closer level of competition to his Steelers, who were 1-13 in 1969. It took four years, but Rooney got his reward.
 
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