WI: Nixon Elected in 1960

Your Majesty: Presumably JFK's medical conditions don't get exposed? Remember, before Kraus and Burkley saved him from a wheelchair IOTL, he was using Travell as the primary-care physician. She was resistant to the point where she was only retained to prevent her leaking her files to the New York Times. Even RFK IOTL, nearly nine years younger and incomparably fitter, had three or four stress-induced illnesses. How is Jack going to cope if he needs crutches and descends Marine One and AF1 one step at a time?

Politically: How is JFK going to distinguish himself from the Nixon administration, both being relatively centrist? He'd be experienced, but they could use the OTL anti-Nixon argument: he lost it for us in '60, someone else should try.
 
Well, I think in this case...Even now with all the reports, psychological evaluations and tapes it's so hard to truly wrap you finger around Dick Nixon's mindset. The man even in 1960 was a Political Genius(I do think that the Devious part happened due to his Presidential/Gubernatorial losses and the wilderness years), and he will probably continue whatever strategy he picks to win the election, effectivley govern that way.

The biggest intial problem with Nixon in 1960, that not only was he all over the place literally with his "50 State Campaign Strategy" but with his foggy rhetoric he was able to truly appeal to the Southern States. I think this was his biggest mistake, had he trully stuck with a Pro-Civil Rights stance and appealled to Urban plight he could have locked up the Rust belt giving him the election.
 
Well, two political scientists did an analysis that showed both parties were judged equally CR-friendly in 1958-9. MLK Sr. even initially endorsed Nixon. Then came the two Kennedy phone calls and that finished that idea.

Re "50 states": that was stupid. If he'd focused on the swing states like OH, PA, IL, IN Nixon would have won. Even the debates needn't have been a problem if he'd used the sunlamp like he did in anticipation of facing Bobby in 1968 IOTL.

Re deviousness: Nixon was just the candidate most comfortable with Rovian tactical maneuvering for its own sake.
 
Your Majesty: Presumably JFK's medical conditions don't get exposed? Remember, before Kraus and Burkley saved him from a wheelchair IOTL, he was using Travell as the primary-care physician. She was resistant to the point where she was only retained to prevent her leaking her files to the New York Times. Even RFK IOTL, nearly nine years younger and incomparably fitter, had three or four stress-induced illnesses. How is Jack going to cope if he needs crutches and descends Marine One and AF1 one step at a time?
It depends on how much you think his condition would deteriorate and in what ways his condition and doctor situation would be amended (some twists of fate to get him in contact with doctor's and physicians who warned of Travell in similar form and led to similar results is possible).

Depending the situation and if it is allowed to go that far (crutches or a wheelchair), it'd be handled very carefully. The same sort of press technique of the Kennedy clan football games to show off an athletic President in apparently good and even suburb health would be used to show him as fully capable and mobile, probably in a similar fashion as was done with President Roosevelt in hiding his own condition. If someone does a timeline, this is a rather interesting possibility.

Politically: How is JFK going to distinguish himself from the Nixon administration, both being relatively centrist?
Likely similar to how he had in 1960, save with the element of the outsider to boot. I don't think I'd refer to either as a centrist, but rather highlight the limited distinctions between the parties in this era. Before a Liberal party and Conservative party, there were big tents. As the Democrats represented the Blue collar and Republicans the white collar, Kennedy would probably play to the common man, minorities, unions and so forth. The issue here, however, is that he would run with talking points derived from what had been done the past 8 years, which is something we can't be sure of and which we are obviously discussing currently. Similarly, it depends on the GOP candidate for 1968. If it's Reagan for example, Kennedy can likely swamp him in the number of minority voters he'd get as Reagan's Conservatism wasn't a friend of Civil Rights.

He'd be experienced, but they could use the OTL anti-Nixon argument: he lost it for us in '60, someone else should try.
That would obviously be an issue. But, he'd have built himself as a grand statesman, a prime representative of Democratic party, and so forth over the last eight years as Nixon had done on the opposite side. He'd also probably avoid the embarrassments that plagued Nixon in that time. Had Nixon not failed to win California in 1962 (a move which almost destroyed his career and which made it appear he wasn't going to return in 1968), I would posit Nixon would have had an easier chance in the nomination. And of course, he could use the message as Nixon did of "I'm the best you've got".

Well, two political scientists did an analysis that showed both parties were judged equally CR-friendly in 1958-9. MLK Sr. even initially endorsed Nixon. Then came the two Kennedy phone calls and that finished that idea.
On Civil Rights, depending on how the GOP goes and if the Conservatives do rise, the GOP could lose the remaining black vote they had as they did in 1964 and over the course of the years following. If I recall, there remained a bit of division among the black populace. If I recall correctly, FDR had brought a good deal of blacks into the Democratic party due to his welfare programs and so forth, and many said something to the effect of "Lincoln really is dead". However, many remained with the Republicans, who did not have the Dixiecrats, and who retained the support for Civil Rights. Then came Goldwater and the rise of the Conservatives, and then went the black vote. That was the point where MLK abandoned the Republican party (keep in mind, as a Southern black, King and his ancestors had seen a GOP which supported his people, and the Southern Democrats who were none too friendly to the black population, and supported the GOP for the Progressives and against the Conservatives. I address this because too many modern Republicans cite King's being a Republican as if support for Conservatism or the party as it is now, when nothing could be further from the truth). If 1968 sees a Conservative run the GOP ticket and/or the Conservatives rise, a similar thing is probable to happen.

Re "50 states": that was stupid. If he'd focused on the swing states like OH, PA, IL, IN Nixon would have won. Even the debates needn't have been a problem if he'd used the sunlamp like he did in anticipation of facing Bobby in 1968 IOTL.
Wasn't Nixon recovering from some sickness during the debates, though?

Re deviousness: Nixon was just the candidate most comfortable with Rovian tactical maneuvering for its own sake.
Nixon took deviousness to an extreme, and a rather scary one at that. If people are planning on assassinating a reporter who speaks out against you under your administration (as did happen under Nixon's OTL administration; in fact, there were a number of other controversies or whatever you want to call them under the Nixon administration which were just as bad as Watergate, and sometimes worse) it shows signs that you've gone to a high point.

It is fun to consider what other Watergate like acts a Nixon administration of the 1960's could do.
 
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I agree with you on everything, unsurprisingly. ;) But on the deviousness, LBJ and RFK were also big fans of tapping, dirty tricks and RFK's purposeful neglect of civil liberties in regard to MLK's phone cost him the Oregon primary when Hoover leaked it IOTL. Though none of them ever planned assassinating a journalist, which sounds positively Marcosian. Now a TL where PI becomes a US state and Marcos becomes POTUS- Wilson and PATRIOT would look like peanuts.
 
I agree with you on everything, unsurprisingly. ;)
I am glorious, yes.;)

But on the deviousness, LBJ and RFK were also big fans of tapping, dirty tricks and RFK's purposeful neglect of civil liberties in regard to MLK's phone cost him the Oregon primary when Hoover leaked it IOTL. Though none of them ever planned assassinating a journalist, which sounds positively Marcosian.

Keep in mind though, RFK's go-ahead to Hoover was lukewarm and if I recall limited (I don't even remember if he mentioned wiretaps. I think it was just an ok for Hoover to investigate possible connections to Communism), and Hoover went "above and beyond" with it more than Kennedy may have been ok with.

Nixon really was extraordinary in his deviousness and Machiavellianism. He broke a mile long list of laws and civil liberties, twisted things, lied to a degree which politicians took special note of for it's being so radical (when politicians call you a liar, that's bad), and used dirty Rove like tactics via CREEP and various actions and groups and individuals. Then again, he instituted a number of grand programs and was a pretty good President.

Now a TL where PI becomes a US state and Marcos becomes POTUS- Wilson and PATRIOT would look like peanuts.
An Asian candidate would have a hard time becoming President, let alone an Asian candidate with genocidal and despotic overtones.;)
 
Yes- Nixon was absolutely Machiavellian, but that's what he wanted to be "Being Machiavellian is not necessarily a bad thing." On the wiretaps: the problem was that RFK, to be nice, wasn't an electronics expert. Namely the difference between tapping and bugging. :eek: Seems astonishing, but true nonetheless. Truman called Nixon a "goddamn shifty-faced liar", and he was 110% correct.
 
Well I think the scariest thing about an earlier Nixon Presidency(Im thinking about doing one where Nixon becomes POTUS after Ike has a fatal heart attack in '55) is not the obvious Watergatesque illegalites he will commit but that to the social stigmas of the early '60's, he'll probably get away with most of it:eek:.

I know alot of people have mentioned, that Dick will probably get reelected, if he survives his first term(You all know Im a big fan of the Twenty year curse, but I know it's more stylistic Prefrence). I still think the 12 year rule will be a big thing here, and I think he will be fighting a very uphill battle to secure a second term. As for Democratic Candidates, I think HHH with his 2nd place finish in 1960 would be considered the frontrunner. But from his OTL Runs for the Presidency, he was never really that great of a campaigner and anathema to the South. What we need is someone that could be considered who could appeal to the liberal New Deal Democrats, as well as a hawk against Communisim and Busing to rally the South. Why not Scoop Jackson against Nixon in '64?
 
I believe Scoop Jackson was a big unknown at this time, so I'm not sure that'd work out. Maybe he could edge it out in the nomination, but he'll be a dark horse if he does.
 
I believe Scoop Jackson was a big unknown at this time, so I'm not sure that'd work out. Maybe he could edge it out in the nomination, but he'll be a dark horse if he does.

Actually, Scoop was pretty well known on the National Level, He served as DNC Chairman from '60 to '61, and was one of the biggest Democratic supporters for the CVA both in '57 and '64. I also think that his one-on-one campaign style, would be much better suited in the Party Boss Controlled early Sixties. He'd have to enter the primaires ofcourse, but looking at OTL '64 schedule I think he'd do well enough to sweep the rather weak field (If Jack doesn't run). If Nixon keeps advisors in Vietnam(which I think he would) and the situation on the ground is rapidly detoriating I think Scoop could wipe the floor with Nixon. People like a fighting underdog...
 
I'll post a possible ATL '64 electoral map in a bit. I think personally one of us three (Norton, Historico or myself) should do this TL, with the other two pitching in to help as required. A collaborative one isn't prosey, which this certainly deserves.
 
Here's a 1964 map with the old scheme...

genusmap.php


(R) Richard M. Nixon/William Stratton: 281 EV, 52.7%
(D) Henry M. Jackson/ John B. Connally: 257 EV, 46.6%

Incumbent President: Richard Nixon (R)
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Would Connally have gotten the VP slot in '64? I mean, without Kennedy he wouldn't have been Secretary of the Navy (for less than a year) and he'd only been elected Governor of Texas in 1963.

Who else could it be? I was thinking maybe George Wallace (due to his Southern and urban working class appeal), but he may be a bit too segregationist not only for Scoop, but for the Dems in '64 in general. So maybe two-time Tennessee Governor Frank G. Clement, who was a moderate desegregationist but still very in tune with his fellow Southerners would be nominated for veep?
 
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Actually, Scoop was pretty well known on the National Level, He served as DNC Chairman from '60 to '61, and was one of the biggest Democratic supporters for the CVA both in '57 and '64. I also think that his one-on-one campaign style, would be much better suited in the Party Boss Controlled early Sixties. He'd have to enter the primaires ofcourse, but looking at OTL '64 schedule I think he'd do well enough to sweep the rather weak field (If Jack doesn't run). If Nixon keeps advisors in Vietnam(which I think he would) and the situation on the ground is rapidly detoriating I think Scoop could wipe the floor with Nixon. People like a fighting underdog...
According to his wiki-bio, he was not well known by the public. But, that could be incorrect.
I actually don't think he could assuradly sweep 1964 in the nomination process. You'd have a number of candidates including possibly a rerun of Humphrey and Johnson (knowing Lyndon Johnson, he may otherwise wish to hold off until 1968 like Kennedy for the reason of being a dead entity if he loses 1964, but by that point there'd also be the problem of age if he waited), along with Pat Brown and a Dixiecrat uprising of sorts by Wallace.

I'll post a possible ATL '64 electoral map in a bit. I think personally one of us three (Norton, Historico or myself) should do this TL, with the other two pitching in to help as required. A collaborative one isn't prosey, which this certainly deserves.
I was actually going to pitch the idea of doing this collaberatively. Not necessarily a triumverate or quadunverate or whatever it may be, but perhaps with a project leader for cohesion and direction and a team under them.

Here's a 1964 map with the old scheme...

genusmap.php


(R) Richard M. Nixon/William Stratton: 281 EV, 52.7%
(D) Henry M. Jackson/ John B. Connally: 257 EV, 46.6%

Incumbent President: Richard Nixon (R)
Why does Nixon get the South? I doubt a Southern strategy as in 1968 and the GOP will likely try their hands at Civil rights legislation which, although the Northern Democrats will follow and likely contribute heavily, probably denies Nixon Southern support if only out of the Dixiecrats following the ticket for anger at the GOP. I mean, I know the Southerners who had settled in the cities beginning with and since Roosevelt were voting or beginning to vote Republican by that point, but I don't think Dick could sweep those states even then.

***

How does the Conservative faction of the GOP evolve? Goldwater would not be the 1964 nominee obviously, not to mention the ripples that would follow everything of a President Nixon.
 
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Ibn Warraq

Banned
I'm surprised no one's brought up the question of how the Bay of Pigs would have gone down considering that it occurred only a few months after Kennedy took office. I suspect the OTL Bay of Pigs would have been much messier since I suspect Nixon wouldn't have been so obsessed with trying to have as little "noise" as possible and try and have US involvement in the operation be as little as possible.

Similarly, the Cuban Missile Crisis would probably have gone far differently.
 
I'm surprised no one's brought up the question of how the Bay of Pigs would have gone down considering that it occurred only a few months after Kennedy took office. I suspect the OTL Bay of Pigs would have been much messier since I suspect Nixon wouldn't have been so obsessed with trying to have as little "noise" as possible and try and have US involvement in the operation be as little as possible.
I've read Nixon was a supporter of the old regime of things in Cuba, and perhaps even had ties to mafia heads who had controlled Cuba during the Batista days of the 1950's.

I can see him keeping the air support and Marine support. Keep in mind, however, that this was all to be covert which is why it's failing will be messy. The CIA trained operatives were supposed to go in, create some ex-deus revolution, and then the Marines would sweep in when the new regime "requested" their support (which would be the official story for why the Marines were following shortly behind and the air force shooting away here and there). And it would have failed. The CIA just expected the Cubans to start a revolution, the Cuban people didn't because they weren't idiots, and the CIA was flustered by this for some reason. By keeping the air and Marine backing, you may have more people dying (I can't recall if the Marines were supposed to go along with the exiles or follow right after some puppet regime was set up), and by involving the US deeper it'll become a bigger debacle.

Similarly, the Cuban Missile Crisis would probably have gone far differently.
I'm not sure that a Missile Crisis is necessarily assured, but I'd posit the Soviets and Cuba would form a relationship in some way. Similarly, the failure of Bay of Pigs would further stress US/Soviet relations. Beginning with the U2 crash in 1960, tensions were already rising and going against a cooling of tensions and the detente that Eisenhower was trying to work on with Khrushchev and came close to (I believe a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty was in the works). I think Nixon would make it a point to try to repair that relationship, and may start out with a far better relationship with Khrushchev than Kennedy, which I think will make the blowback from BoP all the worse.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Similarly, the Cuban Missile Crisis would probably have gone far differently.

It might not happen at all. Krushchev sent Missile's because Kennedy's half-assed invasion made him look weak, so Krushchev took a gamble. Of course, a full-blown invasion that ends up failing might provoke the same reaction from Krushchev.

Ultimately it depends on whether Krushchev thinks he can get away with putting missiles in Cuba.
 
It might not happen at all. Krushchev sent Missile's because Kennedy's half-assed invasion made him look weak, so Krushchev took a gamble. Of course, a full-blown invasion that ends up failing might provoke the same reaction from Krushchev.

Ultimately it depends on whether Krushchev thinks he can get away with putting missiles in Cuba.
Again, it wasn't a full-blown invasion, nor intended to be. It was a covert action. The US wouldn't even accept responsibility for the exiles had it worked, I think. Everything relied on the exiles succeeding. They were to go in, somehow start a populist revolt and take power from Castro and "request" US support which is where the Marines and air support would come in... at least officially.

Similarly, it was the CIA's invasion and they're the one's that made it half-assed. They expected an ex-deus-machina revolution to rise up against Castro because the Cubans would love freedom and America-Jesus or something.
The Soviets placed missiles in Cuba in reaction to the missiles in Turkey to shore up defenses and level things, and because they feared US invasion of Cuba. Not to mention the Soviets saw an opening since Cuba befriended them after the Bay of Pigs for self preservation against a feared US invasion.
 
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