WI Nicholas II decided make big reforms in Russia earlier?
- Thread starter abc123
- Start date
archaeogeek
Banned
Who are you and what did you do with Nicholas II?
Nicholas II was a reactionary autocrat who saw himself as Russia: reforms? Are you fucking kidding?
He was a sociopathic czar whose reaction to ordering crowds charged or losing an entire fleet to the Japanese was ultimately always the same, boredom. "Had some people shot" was how he reacted to the 1905 riots.
I'm going to be siding with the people: it wasn't the bolsheviks who had Nicolas II killed, it was the Yekaterinburg soviet, and fuck yes they had grievances worth a bullet, even if having the children shot might have been going too far.
Nicholas II was a reactionary autocrat who saw himself as Russia: reforms? Are you fucking kidding?
He was a sociopathic czar whose reaction to ordering crowds charged or losing an entire fleet to the Japanese was ultimately always the same, boredom. "Had some people shot" was how he reacted to the 1905 riots.
I'm going to be siding with the people: it wasn't the bolsheviks who had Nicolas II killed, it was the Yekaterinburg soviet, and fuck yes they had grievances worth a bullet, even if having the children shot might have been going too far.
abc123
Banned
Well, the entire point of AH is to CHANGE things.
If we would stuck with OTL Nicholas, then there's no sence in AH.
And I wouldn't call him sociopatic.
He personally maybe deserved bullet, but also thouse who have killed him, also deserved a bullet. One bandit killed by bunch of other bandits.
And, no, his wife and childern didn't deserve to die.
abc123
Banned
In the July of 1895 Nicholas II, while on pleasure cruise on a Imperial Yacht, held a meeting that will decide about destiny of Imperial Russian Navy for next few decades.
Minister Makarov and Chief of Naval Staff admiral Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich presented ambitious plans for development of the Navy.
But, Czar had other things on his mind.
Russia in sommer of 1895. had next major ships:
armoured frigates: ( Baltic sea )
Vladimir Monomakh
Dmitri Donskoi
armoured frigates: ( Black Sea ) ( obsolete )
Ekatarina Velika
Georgy Pobedonosec
Chesma
Sinop
armoured frigates: ( Baltic Sea ) ( obsolete )
General-Admiral
Gertsog Edingburgskii
Minin
armoured cruisers: ( Pacific )
Admiral Nakhimov
Pamiat Azova
armoured cruisers: ( Baltic Sea )
Riurik
one more ship in construction
armoured ships: ( Baltic Sea ) ( obsolete )
Nikolai I
Alexander II
Gangut
predreadought battleship: ( Pacific )
Sissoi Veliky
Navarino ( commissioning next year )
coastal defence ships: ( Baltic Sea )
Admiral Ushakov
Admiral Senyavin
protected cruisers: ( Pacific )
Vitiaz
Rynda
Admiral Kornyilov
torpedo cruisers: ( Baltic Sea, Black Sea )
Leytenant Illyin
Kapiten Saken
Kazarskii
Voyevoda
Posadnik
Vsadnik
Gaidamak
Griden
predreadnought battleships: ( Black Sea )
12 Apostols
Rostislav
Tri Svyatitela
predreadnought battleships: ( Baltic Sea )
Petropavlovsk
Sevastopol
Poltava
As can be seen, Imperial Navy had a pretty big number of ships, but they were mostly obsolete. So, Navy wanted new ships.
But, Czar decided otherwise.
Czar said that Russian Empire is primarly continental, not maritime power.
Maritime communications, alltrough important, are not crucial.
Any future war that Russia considered as likely, will not be won on sea, niether Russia can be defeated on sea only.
Also, big problem of Russia is division of her fleets. Baltic Sea fleet most likely oponent was Germany. But Germany could use all of it's seapower agains just about half of russian. So, major task ot that fleet will be protection of Baltic Sea coast and preventing enemy invasions.
Black Sea fleet was closed in that sea, because of Straits regime, and her primary task was combatting against Ottoman Navy.
Pacific Squadron, located in Vladivostok currently, but with future port in Port Artur, had to deal with Japan.
Czar realised that Russia can't afford to have a large fleet in Far East, so decided to send oldest and least important ships in pacific. So in case of war with japan, their destruction isn't a great strike to Imperial navy. Money intended for modernising Pacific Squadron will be best used by investing it into construction Transsiberean railway, so that Imperial Army can quickly transport soldiers on far East if nescesarry. It was the task of diplomacy to ensure that conflict with Japan was avoided before TSR is finished and modernisation of Imperial Amy completed.
So, Baltic Sea Fleet get a No.1 place in placing of resources and got best ships, because she had strongest opponent.
Black Sea Fleet get a No.2 place, and Pacific Squadron was on last place.
Czar also decided that in next 5 years no new major warships ( battleships ) will not be constructed for Imperial Navy.
Only cruisers for showing the flag and torpedo cruisers for coastal defence.
Money saved will be used for construction of second track of Transsiberean Railway that will begin next year.
Many old ships will be sent into Pacific Squadron, like all armoured frigates and armoured cruisers.
So, Pacific Squadron will have this ships:
2 predreadnought battleships ( Sissoi Veliky, Navarino )
5 armoured frigates ( Vladimir Monomakh, Dmitrii Donski, General-Admiral, Gertsog Edingburgskii, Minin )
2 armoured cruisers ( Admiral Nakhimov, Pamiat Azova )
3 protected cruisers ( Vitiaz, Rynda, Admiral Kornylov )
That descisions created bad relations between Grand Duke Aleksei Alexandrovich and Czar, so Czar asked for his resignation from the post of Chief of Naval Staff.
Czar decided that new Chief of Naval Staff will be admiral Pavel Zelenoy.
admiral Pavel Zelenoy
Minister Makarov and Chief of Naval Staff admiral Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich presented ambitious plans for development of the Navy.
But, Czar had other things on his mind.
Russia in sommer of 1895. had next major ships:
armoured frigates: ( Baltic sea )
Vladimir Monomakh
Dmitri Donskoi
armoured frigates: ( Black Sea ) ( obsolete )
Ekatarina Velika
Georgy Pobedonosec
Chesma
Sinop
armoured frigates: ( Baltic Sea ) ( obsolete )
General-Admiral
Gertsog Edingburgskii
Minin
armoured cruisers: ( Pacific )
Admiral Nakhimov
Pamiat Azova
armoured cruisers: ( Baltic Sea )
Riurik
one more ship in construction
armoured ships: ( Baltic Sea ) ( obsolete )
Nikolai I
Alexander II
Gangut
predreadought battleship: ( Pacific )
Sissoi Veliky
Navarino ( commissioning next year )
coastal defence ships: ( Baltic Sea )
Admiral Ushakov
Admiral Senyavin
protected cruisers: ( Pacific )
Vitiaz
Rynda
Admiral Kornyilov
torpedo cruisers: ( Baltic Sea, Black Sea )
Leytenant Illyin
Kapiten Saken
Kazarskii
Voyevoda
Posadnik
Vsadnik
Gaidamak
Griden
predreadnought battleships: ( Black Sea )
12 Apostols
Rostislav
Tri Svyatitela
predreadnought battleships: ( Baltic Sea )
Petropavlovsk
Sevastopol
Poltava
As can be seen, Imperial Navy had a pretty big number of ships, but they were mostly obsolete. So, Navy wanted new ships.
But, Czar decided otherwise.
Czar said that Russian Empire is primarly continental, not maritime power.
Maritime communications, alltrough important, are not crucial.
Any future war that Russia considered as likely, will not be won on sea, niether Russia can be defeated on sea only.
Also, big problem of Russia is division of her fleets. Baltic Sea fleet most likely oponent was Germany. But Germany could use all of it's seapower agains just about half of russian. So, major task ot that fleet will be protection of Baltic Sea coast and preventing enemy invasions.
Black Sea fleet was closed in that sea, because of Straits regime, and her primary task was combatting against Ottoman Navy.
Pacific Squadron, located in Vladivostok currently, but with future port in Port Artur, had to deal with Japan.
Czar realised that Russia can't afford to have a large fleet in Far East, so decided to send oldest and least important ships in pacific. So in case of war with japan, their destruction isn't a great strike to Imperial navy. Money intended for modernising Pacific Squadron will be best used by investing it into construction Transsiberean railway, so that Imperial Army can quickly transport soldiers on far East if nescesarry. It was the task of diplomacy to ensure that conflict with Japan was avoided before TSR is finished and modernisation of Imperial Amy completed.
So, Baltic Sea Fleet get a No.1 place in placing of resources and got best ships, because she had strongest opponent.
Black Sea Fleet get a No.2 place, and Pacific Squadron was on last place.
Czar also decided that in next 5 years no new major warships ( battleships ) will not be constructed for Imperial Navy.
Only cruisers for showing the flag and torpedo cruisers for coastal defence.
Money saved will be used for construction of second track of Transsiberean Railway that will begin next year.
Many old ships will be sent into Pacific Squadron, like all armoured frigates and armoured cruisers.
So, Pacific Squadron will have this ships:
2 predreadnought battleships ( Sissoi Veliky, Navarino )
5 armoured frigates ( Vladimir Monomakh, Dmitrii Donski, General-Admiral, Gertsog Edingburgskii, Minin )
2 armoured cruisers ( Admiral Nakhimov, Pamiat Azova )
3 protected cruisers ( Vitiaz, Rynda, Admiral Kornylov )
That descisions created bad relations between Grand Duke Aleksei Alexandrovich and Czar, so Czar asked for his resignation from the post of Chief of Naval Staff.
Czar decided that new Chief of Naval Staff will be admiral Pavel Zelenoy.
admiral Pavel Zelenoy
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The whole point of this forum is to change things plausibly.
You've been told that repeatedly and you've seen inappropriate threads you've started moved to more appropriate forums so there's no excuse not to understand that.
This is not alternate history according the rules of this forum because you've suggested no POD apart from from Nicholas "changing his mind" and you've changed his mind to such an extent that you might as well suggest he's had a brain transplant.
This is nothing more than a one-man roleplaying thread and as such it does not belong here.
abc123
Banned
Dozens of AH treads are opened here and on post-1900 subforum each day with POD beeing "WI someone done this instead of that", without some major explanation for such descision.
And nobody mowes them anywhere...
What you're continuing to fail to understand is that you're not presenting "WI someone done this instead of that" (sic). You're presenting hundreds of different decisions being made by a man who is acting and thinking completely differently than he did in the OTL.
A single decision can be explained by a coin flip, but what you're posting is a wholesale brain transplant.
archaeogeek
Banned
Dozens of AH treads are opened here and on post-1900 subforum each day with POD beeing "WI someone done this instead of that", without some major explanation for such descision.
And nobody mowes them anywhere...
Because nobody is suggesting we replace Nicholas II by pod people.
abc123
Banned
OK, what would be greatest amount of change that we can make on Nicholas II to create some significant butterflies?
The most plausible way to make great changes to Nicholas II himself would involve greatly changing his upbringing. Your questions indicate that you want a Nicholas II who merely behaves differently and not a Nicholas II who is physically different. To deal with that means we're looking at the old "Nature vs. Nurture" question. Let me try to explain.
Leaving the many thorny philosophical questions raised by the "Nature vs Nurture" conjecture aside for the moment, let me suggest that someone's behavior is guided by both their physical nature and their personal experiences. (That shouldn't offend too many sensibilities.)
Still with me? Good.
Like most of us, Nicholas II's behavior will be based on the interplay between his nature and the nurturing he receives. Because you want his nature to remain untouched - you want a Nicholas II who acts differently and not a entirely different Nicholas II - we need to change the nurturing Nicholas II received and that means we need to change the lives of his father, Alexander III, and his grandfather, Alexander II.
The well known Tuchman quote from the Nicholas II Wiki page states the Tsar's intellectual deficits and the role his upbringing may have had in exacerbating those deficits far better than I could:
[The Russian Empire] was ruled from the top by a sovereign who had but one idea of government—to preserve intact the absolute monarchy bequeathed to him by his father—and who, lacking the intellect, energy or training for his job, fell back on personal favorites, whim, simple mulishness, and other devices of the empty-headed autocrat. His father, Alexander III, who deliberately intended to keep his son uneducated in statecraft until the age of thirty, unfortunately miscalculated his own life expectancy, and died when Nicholas was twenty-six. The new Tsar had learned nothing in the interval, and the impression of imperturbability he conveyed was in reality apathy—the indifference of a mind so shallow as to be all surface. When a telegram was brought to him announcing the annihilation of the Russian fleet at Tsushima, he read it, stuffed it in his pocket, and went on playing tennis. (Tuchman, Barbara W. The Guns of August. New York: Presidio Press, 1962, p71)
In Nicholas II, we're dealing with a person whose nature is profoundly stupid and whose nurturing provided with no real education. Stupid can't really be changed but education can certainly help. Change the lives of Nicholas II's grandfather and father and Nicholas may receive an education which helps him partially overcome his intellectual deficits. That in turn could produce a Nicholas who learns to value advice, knows his own limits, and makes better decisions on some issues.
All this being said, however, nothing apart from a person ISOTed from 2011 with a complete set of text books covering sociology, economics, the diplomatic history of the era, the history of military technology from the era, and several other fields would be able to make all of the decisions you've suggested here.
This thread isn't about the plausibly different decisions the historical Nicholas could have made or the decisions a plausibly different Nicholas could have made. Instead, this thread is about the always correct, based on perfect knowledge of the future, different decisions your "This Nicholas is really someone playing Victoria 2, Civilization, or some other world-building strategy computer game" would make.
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You know, Leon Trotsky in his history of the Russian Revolution addressed this whole issue of monarchs who get overwhelmed by revolutions, arguing that the problem goes way deeper than just "mistakes made" in raising this or that monarch, that the nature of monarchy tends to produce these kinds of people who fail to head off the revolution. When they might act effectively (if not particularly ethically!) they stare like a deer caught in headlights; when they do act, according to the sum of their expensive training plus their presumably more or less average "nature," whatever that means, they only pour oil--not onto troubled waters, but onto flames...
Trotsky compared Nicholas II to Louis XVI, pointing out very similar and parallel myopias. Accept or reject the argument that monarchy itself tends to form a certain kind of character, one that will be fatally blind to certain realities that commoner eyes can see clearly enough, as you will.
I haven't had the heart to scan your posts to see if you've incorporated Super-Stolypin yet or not.
Oh, have your fun. I've seen far better threads shut down or diverted though. If I could only have them back, I'd tolerate this kind of thing going on and not look at it cheerfully enough.
Trotsky compared Nicholas II to Louis XVI, pointing out very similar and parallel myopias. Accept or reject the argument that monarchy itself tends to form a certain kind of character, one that will be fatally blind to certain realities that commoner eyes can see clearly enough, as you will.
I haven't had the heart to scan your posts to see if you've incorporated Super-Stolypin yet or not.
Oh, have your fun. I've seen far better threads shut down or diverted though. If I could only have them back, I'd tolerate this kind of thing going on and not look at it cheerfully enough.
abc123
Banned
So, the right path could be that Alexander III education is like his father's education.
So, maybe to get rid of Konstantin Pobedonostsev as a teacher for young Alexander III, or to give to him much better education from the start, while he wasn't Heir of Throne yet?
No. Read about Alexander III and his personality.
While heirs reflexively position themselves as the near-opposite or opposite of the reigning monarch, Alexander III was the anti-thesis of Alexander II in every way possible and deliberately so.
Getting rid of Alexander III after Nicholas' birth coupled with an Alexander II who isn't assassinated and reigns until his grandson is a young adult would be better.
By the way, was it necessary to quote my nine paragraph in it's entirety just to post a two sentence reply?
abc123
Banned
Yes, but how to awoid that if young Nicholas becomes the heir instead of Alexander III?
How to get rid of Alexander III?
Asasination could work, but that could effect badly on Alexander II and young Nicholas.
Alexander II could reign another 10 years...
Nope. But no harm was done to anyone, right?
abc123
Banned
So, no ideas how to kill Alexander III?
Maybe death in Bulgaria during war with Turkey 1878.?
Or Narodna vola suceeds to kill him?
Or banishment into Dennmark during conflict with Alexander II over his illegitimate childern and second wedding?
Nobody?