WI New Amsterdam remained Dutch after 1664

WI the Brits didn't take New Amsterdam in 1664?

How long could it have remained Dutch? Would it be possible for Dutch, French, and Spanish founded independent nations to exist in present times?
 
WIC-supervised immigration to the New Netherlands was just picking up in the 1650s, but even so the total Dutch population in the New Netherlands in 1664 was quite low compared to bordering British settlements. Profits were much lower compared to WIC territories in the Caribbean and Guiana, so the Company hadn't invested much in the colony. By the time there the WIC did pay the New Netherlands some attention, British colonists were already sneaking onto WIC land and settling down.

By the 1660s, it seemed increasingly likely that the British would sieze control of the New Netherlands at some point or another. There's Brits to the north and south and even within the territory itself, the colony wasn't turning as much of a profit as the WIC wanted, and generally no one in the Netherlands cared for it.
 
I figured as much. But what effects, if any, would it have for it to be taken either during or after the Second Anglo-Dutch War?
 
I figured as much. But what effects, if any, would it have for it to be taken either during or after the Second Anglo-Dutch War?

I assume you mean, what effects if the Dutch recaptured it? Well, they did in fact take it again - in 1673 (druing the Third Anglo-Dutch War), which certainly satisfies your "after the Second Anglo-Dutch War" condition. And due to the reasons Ofaloaf already stated, at the war's conclusion in 1674 the Dutch were happy to "exchange" it for Suriname (which as a matter of fact they had already captured from the English in 1667).

The only way I can see the Dutch holding on to New Amsterdam is if the English had suffered even more humiliation in the Third Anglo-Dutch War. Although the Dutch are widely regarded to have emerged the victors, with the English suffering several significant blows to their prestige (amongst others their defeat in all four major naval battles of the war and of course their allowing the Dutch to recapture New Amsterdam), nevertheless the bargaining power of the Dutch was held in check somewhat because:

a) Although the Dutch had forced the crestfallen English out of the war, they still had to continue fighting France until 1678, so this was no time to start making excessive demands to the English.

b) Just two years previously, the Dutch had suffered their Rampjaar ("disaster year") of 1672, when the Netherlands seemed to be on the brink of total annihilation due to the initially successful Anglo-French attack. Hence, the Dutch were probably mindful of how quickly things could change and how they shouldn't push things too far in the peace negotiations with the English.

However, if the Dutch victory had been more extensive, then it is very possible that the Dutch no longer say, "ok we will give you back New Amsterdam as long as we get to keep Suriname", but rather, "we get to keep both New Amsterdam and Suriname". And with the English even more desperate to get out of the war than in OTL, I doubt they'd put up much fuss.
 
However, if the Dutch victory had been more extensive, then it is very possible that the Dutch no longer say, "ok we will give you back New Amsterdam as long as we get to keep Suriname", but rather, "we get to keep both New Amsterdam and Suriname". And with the English even more desperate to get out of the war than in OTL, I doubt they'd put up much fuss.

You know that is the same POD I used for my first unfinished timeline (unfished as in I only made the first post). Because i figured that Ofaloaf had a good point about the WIC, I made the New Netherlands part of the Netherlands (its own province) and not another WIC colony.

Maybe I should pay some attention at that timeline as I recently got a cool idea how to continue it.


PS. I realise that this is my first post this year.
 
You know that is the same POD I used for my first unfinished timeline (unfished as in I only made the first post). Because i figured that Ofaloaf had a good point about the WIC, I made the New Netherlands part of the Netherlands (its own province) and not another WIC colony.

Maybe I should pay some attention at that timeline as I recently got a cool idea how to continue it.. I realise that this is my first post this year.

It is indeed a good POD. My own view is that in OTL it really came close to this, especially since the Dutch possessed both Suriname and New Amsterdam by the time the treaty was signed so no exchange was even necessary. Just a slightly more decisive victory in the war and the Dutch might have kept it.

After this it would however be hard going. Unless the Dutch manage to prolong their military Golden Age significantly it will be difficult for them to avoid losing their colonies to France or Britain in the inevitable conflicts of the 18th century (e.g. French and Indian War in OTL).
 
It is indeed a good POD. My own view is that in OTL it really came close to this, especially since the Dutch possessed both Suriname and New Amsterdam by the time the treaty was signed so no exchange was even necessary. Just a slightly more decisive victory in the war and the Dutch might have kept it.

True. I believe that one of the most important reasons for the Dutch not to demand the return of the New Netherlands is the continuing war with France. So they wanted a return to peace with England as quickly as possible. But still I suspect the English wouldn't have refused if the Dutch demanded the New netherlands, they wanted peace as badly (or even more badly) as the Dutch.


After this it would however be hard going. Unless the Dutch manage to prolong their military Golden Age significantly it will be difficult for them to avoid losing their colonies to France or Britain in the inevitable conflicts of the 18th century (e.g. French and Indian War in OTL).

I think that the new netherlands would be relatively safe until the end of the 18th century. The Netherlands and England/Britain will be allies for a century after stadholder Willem III becomes king William III. The 4th Anglo-Dutch war could easily be butterflied away (actualy it even can easily be butterflied away with a pod a couple of years before the war) as the cause for that was the American war of independence, which will probably be very diferent with a Dutch colony splitting New England and the southern british colonies.
 
It is indeed a good POD. My own view is that in OTL it really came close to this, especially since the Dutch possessed both Suriname and New Amsterdam by the time the treaty was signed so no exchange was even necessary. Just a slightly more decisive victory in the war and the Dutch might have kept it.

After this it would however be hard going. Unless the Dutch manage to prolong their military Golden Age significantly it will be difficult for them to avoid losing their colonies to France or Britain in the inevitable conflicts of the 18th century (e.g. French and Indian War in OTL).


Weren't the Dutch allies of the British in that war. As long as the Dutch can retain Nieuw Nederland until William and Mary, then its likely they will retain it until the Nieuw Nederlanders decide to severe the ties themselves. The ARW would definitely be different...

Imagine a USA encompassing only the NE colonies and perhaps Nieuw Nederland ( joining perhaps for common purposes), but with Virginia and the southern colonies remaining British loyalist. Perhaps there is no independence war at all and all colonies have political power devolved to them piecemeal.
 
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