WI: Nazi Kaiserreich?

Okay, let's accept the following scenario:
Germany wins a hard late victory in the Great War, I'm talking after the Russian Revolution. The treaty goes something like this:

-Germany gets some land around around A-L from France along with heavy reparations, Luxembourg, German-speaking parts of Belgium.
-Austria-Hungary gets morsels of territory from Serbia and Italy.
-Germany accepts the lose of her colonial empire to Britain in return for a hefty sum (I mean ALL of it, none goes to France)

But during the 1920s, everything goes to shit. The German economy is hit hard, and the government doesn't do a very good job with providing jobs. Austria collapses into bloody ethnic civil war, and the Hapsburgs bite the bullet and request German assistance in keeping them in power. The war-weary German people hate this war, and even the Austrians have grown tired keeping their empire.
While Germany is being tied down, Stalin manages to snatch up the Ukraine, Finland, and Belarus with varying degrees of difficulty. But most importantly, Germany does nothing. This leaves the German sphere of influence in eastern Europe reduced to Congress Poland and the United Baltic Duchy, in personal union with the German Empire. Even a successful referendum on Baltic political union to the German Empire in the late 20s does little to lift the German national spirit, as the Great Depression hits right on time.
Now lets imagine Hitler, since regardless of how he feels after the war, is still sent to spy on right-wing radical parties by his superiors, and falls in love with one with many of the same early members and a very similar idealogy to the OTL Nazis. They still have plenty of issues to exploit (the economy, the Red Menace in the east, lost colonies, the Austrian War) to pick a bone with the current government, so is it possible they could ever gain power? With regards to the Austrian issue, they would probably advocate breaking up the Hapsburg empire and annexing Austria proper to Germany.
I can still see WW2 happening in this TL. They would most obviously want to take down the Russians for stabbing them in the back in the East, revanchist France and Italy would be knocking, and the German public may or may not wish for a more conclusive victory against the British.
Is any of this possible? Could we get a Nazi Kaissereich? If we do, how would history play out?
 
Alright bud, I'll play.

So lets say we get this "Nazi" Party into the Reichstag with a "Nazi" Reichkanzler. Now, I'm assuming the Kaiser is still around due to the thread's title, and that this is a much more democratic/socialist Germany.

If the people really are as P.O. as you say they are, a strong leftist fascist party could come to power but I see them restrained by the Reichstag, (though my knowledge of Imperial German Politics is frightfully sketchy to say the least). Is there some sort of majority for the Imperial Reichstag? If so, if these "Nazi's" are able to gain it, they could probably do anything they wanted with Germany until the next elections. I don't think you'd see a fascist take over. Also, with the Kaiser its going to be hard to get socialists into power (again, sketchy).

Final Verdict. Maybe something like the Nazi's in a way, "We need to take back our place in the sun!" But not the socialists fascists you are thinking of, and they will most likely agree with the Kaiser in most regards.

I could just be shooting blanks, I dont know. But I tried.
 
I don't think this is plausible. Hitler loathed everything to do with the monarchy, he believed they stabbed German soldiers in the back with the armistice. In the mid-1930s IOTL the Hohenzollern pretender (an admirer of Hitler's, as was Willy) asked Hitler if something could be worked out with regards to a ceremonial position. Hitler told him to get lost.
 
What I think is possible here is a German Civil War, with the Nazis somehow emerging as a similar position to the Nationalists in Spain.

Hitler emerging as a warlord leader in Bavaria, being forced to accept compromises with royalist junkers and the armed forces themselves in a grand coalition as some kind of Social Democratic/Communist coalition attempts to overthrow the Kaiserreich after a decade of endless war in Austria and a massive cleanup in Eastern Europe.

The Resultant German Civil War may expand further. Poland would almost certainly attempt to gain independence, and if the French are screwed in WW1 their willingness to jump in may turn this into a real mess.

For obvious reasons, Hitler is going to have his hands tied in his rule, which probably ends in disaster as he'd probably be launching massive purges of any possible communists, revolutionaries or "Franco-Polish Anarchists." Hitler is not the man for national reconciliation or simple statesmanship.

Viewed from OTL, this would look suspiciously like a For All Time series of events for the Kaiserreich. The next step after Civil War, utter depredations under Hitler, may well be followed by Balkanization, former Nazi warlords with access to nuclear weapons, and finally, parts of Germany start to unify under Jurgen Bartsch in the 1970s*

*Yeah, This one is probably close to ASB. But FaT got that sort of momentum rolling that after really bad leaders there could be serial killer leaders.
 

Susano

Banned
Wellll... hm. For one thing Hitlers rise to power was very lucky, and I think any nearly any TL changes will butterfly it away. But even if we disregard that:

Well, thing is the Kaiserreich DID have quite many, quite nasty elements, and a WW1 victory, even a late one, will reconfirm their position. It is entirely possible that hence in an economicla and political crisis in Germany after a CP victory will see the rise of Völkische parties. However, despite ideological similarities, those are different movements. At worst theyd stuff all Jews back into ghettos, for example.

An entirely new movement arising out of nothing is less likely in the Kaiserreich, since 1) it lacks the period of political chaos after WW1, 2) even with disappointment about the inactivity at the Russian resurgence and about the economical crisis, there would not be an angle of nationalist revionism to play out and 3) with no Weimar Republic, the disappointment would not be about the Republic, but about the structure of the Kaiserreich and its elites - and hence mostly the SPD might profit from it.

Also without a lost WW1 the constitutional order of the Kaiserreich would have far more legitimacy, and it would hence be difficult to simply toss it aside and start a totalitarian regime...

So - well, it depends on your definition. I think any rise of Hitler is improbable because of butterflies, I also think that any real Nazi regime is improbable, but a "Nazi light" government of Völkisch-aligned parties is certainly possible, as said.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
No way would an Austrian no noble, Catholic corpral ever be Chancellor of the Kaiserreich, when Prussian noble Protestant generals and colonels were around.
 
Wall Street crash would affect less this Germany than IOTL Germany, since international finances would have less influence and the governement being more stable and having more authority. Blockade of the Royal Navy could last hovewer, allies would try to limitate central power economy to central and eastern europe.
It is clear that Germany would be vulnerable to the allies as well as the Soviet-Union in the future, lack of ressources to run factories and agricultural production have a hard time following population increase.

What we can also have is a left wing, social democrat riots that eventually turns into an armed rebellion, that in turn turns toward terrorism.
When Hitler comes to power, psychos, ex-criminals blows up schools and hospitals in the name of democracy nearly every day.
The TTL-NSDAP help against those terrorists and agree with many aspects of the Military Junta but ultimately see it as being lead by a bunch of fools that, in their cowardice and incompetence, are dooming the country.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The problem are that a Nazi ruled Kaiserreich would be quite different from OTL 3rd Reich. In OTL Hitler took the traditional position of Kaiser, the army and adminstration swore a loyalty oath to him. Here they won't do that in their eyes the Nazies only rule because the Emperor allow it. So the power of the Nazi party would be much more limited by the traditional establishment.

Beside the Lebenraums idealogy which was the fundament of Nazism doesn't work in TTL, to the east German vassal are between them and Russia. To say nothing of politics the Nazies received a lot of their later support among the rural east Elbian Protestants here they will have little reason to support Nazism.

At last even if the Austria-Hungary break up, Austria will likely keep Bohemia, simply because they receive support from Germany to it, and even a rump Austrian Empire will be too proud and strong to join Germany. So the German Emperor wouldn't wish to alienate the Austrian Emperor by putting a bunch of pan-Germanist in power.

So the Nazistic idealogy need to a major rewrite to function in this world.
 
Beside the Lebenraums idealogy which was the fundament of Nazism doesn't work in TTL, to the east German vassal are between them and Russia.


Congress Poland and the balties? Lol!

The Austrians? A bunch of incapable fools that have alienated most of the populations of their former Empire, have been a constant drain of money and soldiers for Germany, hated by its population. If they have alienated the hungarians too, Berlin will put an end to this joke once and for all...
The kaiser is probably reduced to a mere puppet of the military.
 
The thing is that the reason Hitler got into power in the first place was due to the following reasons.

1. The idea that Germany was stabbed in the back instead of being defeated militarily. Since Germany is victorious, this whole notion goes away.

2. The harsh punishment of the Versailles treaty. Since Germany is victorious this is also gone.

3. The massive economic hardships under the Weimar government. To many the Weimar government was already unpopular and with the great depression this only further destroys it's support among the people. Now with Germany victorious, this means no weimar government, and even if Germany suffers from economic hardship, it's going to be no where near how bad it got for Germany OTL, so the impact is lessened as is the influence hitler could get.

4. And lastly and most importantly, the fear of the Communists in Russia.
Now this was the biggest factor for helping Hitler into power, but with the first two things gone and the third less of a problem then even this issue is going to not be enough for Hitler to get anywhere meaningful in politics.

In short, in your scenario Hitler is going to have almost all of the wind in his sails taken out. So even if Hitler did get the motivation to form a nazi party, he's going to remain a fringe party at best.
 

kenmac

Banned
1. The idea that Germany was stabbed in the back instead of being defeated militarily. Since Germany is victorious, this whole notion goes away.

Many German parties appealed on this idea with much less success.



3. The massive economic hardships under the Weimar government. To many the Weimar government was already unpopular and with the great depression this only further destroys it's support among the people. Now with Germany victorious, this means no weimar government, and even if Germany suffers from economic hardship, it's going to be no where near how bad it got for Germany OTL, so the impact is lessened as is the influence hitler could get.

There will still no doubt be economic hardship in the late 1920s and 1930's.

4. And lastly and most importantly, the fear of the Communists in Russia.
Now this was the biggest factor for helping Hitler into power, but with the first two things gone and the third less of a problem then even this issue is going to not be enough for Hitler to get anywhere meaningful in politics.

In short, in your scenario Hitler is going to have almost all of the wind in his sails taken out. So even if Hitler did get the motivation to form a nazi party, he's going to remain a fringe party at best.

The fear of Communists was not in Russia but Germany.
That fear will still exist.
The Nazis in many ways will apeal to the workers and peasants in the same way Communists and SPD do but direct them in a patriotic direction thus they will still be a popular need for such a party and it will be a big party.
 

kenmac

Banned
How will they appeal on this idea if Germany isnt eaven defeated? In fact how will the idea itself arise if Germany isnt defeated?

My point was that the appeal is not what brought the Nazis to power.
If it was it would have done the same for the other parties.
 

kenmac

Banned
Here is a list of things that would still make the Nazis highly popular.
From the Nazi 25 point promgramme.

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.
We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.
The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.



23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:
(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.
The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.
The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.
 

kenmac

Banned
As you can see only 2 of the Nazis 25 point programme would be dropped if Germany had won the war,
 

Susano

Banned
Kenmac has a point.

Kenmac has spam and multipost. Sure, most points are "applicable", but that is because most points are universal, and could be raised in Italy or France as much as in Germany. However, that does not mean they will become popular points.
 
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