that being the thing then the truth is that all Alternate History Discussion's are ASB then!
WI Nazi Germany vitorious what would todays world be like
- Thread starter Sibahl Khan Noonien Singh
- Start date
that being the thing then the truth is that all Alternate History Discussion's are ASB then!
France was already knocked out ludicrously fast considering the forces in play. By all rights the German invasion of France SHOULD have taken far longer if it was successful at all. It didn't due to luck and the kind of planning put in by both sides.
Furthermore, Dunkirk was not allowed to escape for whatever reason is being advanced this week to make the Heer and Luftwaffe look better. The Wehrmacht was at the end of a long supply line that couldn't keep up with the rate of advance. If the Heer moves even faster this position would actually be worse than OTL, meaning a successful attack on Dunkirk becomes damn near impossible rather than just the incredibly difficult it would have been OTL, especially under RN guns.
Except see that's the problem, this scenario is not possible. The factors standing in its way are too massive to be overcome. A country simply cannot fight that far put of its league for long without losing. Technology can stave it off, but technology can be matched, doctrine can work for a time, but it can be copied and surpassed. Ultimately the side with the numbers, industry, and logistics to crush their opponent is going to win if they don't throw in the towel quickly. The United States alone outweighed the entire European Axis by about 2:1. If you add the Soviets you are looking at half the war making power on EARTH arrayed against them. That 'so the kind of advantage that just can't be overcome.
Germany was fighting too far over its head to win the Second World War barring magic.
No, most Alternate Histories focus on plausible ways that history could have gone differently, WWII could have gone very differently, but a German victory on the scale you are trying to push is simply impossible unless a bat decides now would be a good time for the United Statesand/or the Soviet Union to play Asteroids.
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nooblet
Banned
The only way Nazism wins is by spreading Nazi values and ideology to states, to the point where the rest of the world cheers on the wave of Nazi domination. As soon as Germany had to fight a real war that involved an alliance of major powers instead of immediate capitulation, they were done.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
That response wasn't intended to be sarcastic. I thought it was very straightforward. Sorry if I came across as rude.
For that to happen Nazi ideology would need to be international in scope, instead of being extremely xenophobic (and this is an understatement). It is not easy to spread your ideology if one of the main pillars of it is "And we will kill (or enslave) all those that are not German. Especially Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Blacks and everyone who opposes us, for that matter.".
Needless to say, such an ideology, wouldn't be Nazi and people who would invent this sort of thing, would most likely have an entirely different set of goals.
Besides, such thing was tried by the USSR. Look where it got them...
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
A successful Nazi Germany has been scaled from everything from, "OMNOMNOM*UNIVERSE*OMNOMNOMNOM" to a failed state sometime after the war.
We're a very weird breed of people, aren't we?
Here's my take on a successful Germany after WWII.
How about a military coup? Hitler dies, none of the other Nazis are nearly as popular as Hitler so when Nazi-run Germany becomes a failed state the Nazis lose popularity. The Military pulls its coup(invoking Hitler's image; he's still looked upon favorably to the people). Now you have a stereotypical military dictatorship, but one infinitely more competent than the Nazis.
He never really specified that the Nazis had to continue on after winning WWII
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We're a very weird breed of people, aren't we?
Here's my take on a successful Germany after WWII.
How about a military coup? Hitler dies, none of the other Nazis are nearly as popular as Hitler so when Nazi-run Germany becomes a failed state the Nazis lose popularity. The Military pulls its coup(invoking Hitler's image; he's still looked upon favorably to the people). Now you have a stereotypical military dictatorship, but one infinitely more competent than the Nazis.
He never really specified that the Nazis had to continue on after winning WWII
.Except that the Heer is going to be long gone by that point, replaced by the fanatics of the SS who aren't going to rebel. If they launch a coup (unlikely since it will likely be their commander in charge) things will arguably get worse.
You have to define 'win'... if you define it by Hitler's most wild dreams of conquering everything to the Urals then it was never going to happen. However, a surviving Nazi Germany in control of a large portion of the Ukraine because of a confluence of events in 1940 lead to a weakened Britain under a new leadership that makes peace with Germany say early 1941... and that in turn leads to a bloody war in the East that ends in 1943 with both sides exhausted... well that is entirely possible.
However, Germany would still have America and Britain growing more powerful to their West and the Soviet Union growing more powerful and getting prepared for another round to their East.
Hitler is going to bankrupt his country Nero style building his grand capital while his enemies are preparing for another round. The real question is who replaces Hitler when he retires, dies or is killed mid 1940. There are only four factions that could do it; the Speer or technocrat faction, the army faction, the SS faction, or the Göring faction.
I would say under the Göring or Speer faction it would be a bit like Khrushchev after Stalin. A military junta would be another beast entirely and it would depend on the makeup of the junta. Either factions would prepare for the next round of war and I suspect would end the exterminations in the case of Göring if only to appease Western opinion, but as for slavery I see both the Göring or Speer factions continuing it. A military junta is more iffy, but if its controlled by the Eastern Marshals then it will continue.
The SS faction wins and the lunacy reaches new amazing heights and by the late 40s to early 50s Germany is in a new war and this one involves poison gas, biological weapons and nukes being tossed around. Expect the body count to be larger by many many orders of magnitude then WW2 in Europe OTL.
However, Germany would still have America and Britain growing more powerful to their West and the Soviet Union growing more powerful and getting prepared for another round to their East.
Hitler is going to bankrupt his country Nero style building his grand capital while his enemies are preparing for another round. The real question is who replaces Hitler when he retires, dies or is killed mid 1940. There are only four factions that could do it; the Speer or technocrat faction, the army faction, the SS faction, or the Göring faction.
I would say under the Göring or Speer faction it would be a bit like Khrushchev after Stalin. A military junta would be another beast entirely and it would depend on the makeup of the junta. Either factions would prepare for the next round of war and I suspect would end the exterminations in the case of Göring if only to appease Western opinion, but as for slavery I see both the Göring or Speer factions continuing it. A military junta is more iffy, but if its controlled by the Eastern Marshals then it will continue.
The SS faction wins and the lunacy reaches new amazing heights and by the late 40s to early 50s Germany is in a new war and this one involves poison gas, biological weapons and nukes being tossed around. Expect the body count to be larger by many many orders of magnitude then WW2 in Europe OTL.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I just gave a logical answer to why Sealion fails, and there is a glossary of the Sealion threads. What I proposed was completely different: a possible Axis blockade of Britain in a similar manner to the Allied blockade of Japan, though the Axis blockade would definitely fail.
tenthring
Banned
You need to read a more robust academic works on the Nazi economy. I'd start with Wages of War.
In 1933 Germany was in a classic demand trap like everyplace else. They responded with Keynesian stimulus which increased employment. This mostly took the form of military spending, especially as time went on.
However, the base wasn't very secure. The spending was financed by debt which they could not pay. They were losing access to foreign markets because the debt damaged their currency. Debt was often forced on debt holders that didn't buy it willingly. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, actually fell 25% during the Nazi regime (though this did result in higher employment). Increasingly they had to rely on draconian measures (you couldn't even change jobs without the party agreeing). All in all we are left with a vision of a state fueled by debt to purchase bombs and no plans for the future. In many ways they made war when they did because they had to.
There is also the absolute insanity and corruption of the entire Nazi leadership. I often think people just don't get this, how messed up these people were. When you read about these people and the kind of decisions they made you seriously question their ability to run any kind of state in long haul. And I don't see any kind of "moderate" coup happening.
In 1933 Germany was in a classic demand trap like everyplace else. They responded with Keynesian stimulus which increased employment. This mostly took the form of military spending, especially as time went on.
However, the base wasn't very secure. The spending was financed by debt which they could not pay. They were losing access to foreign markets because the debt damaged their currency. Debt was often forced on debt holders that didn't buy it willingly. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, actually fell 25% during the Nazi regime (though this did result in higher employment). Increasingly they had to rely on draconian measures (you couldn't even change jobs without the party agreeing). All in all we are left with a vision of a state fueled by debt to purchase bombs and no plans for the future. In many ways they made war when they did because they had to.
There is also the absolute insanity and corruption of the entire Nazi leadership. I often think people just don't get this, how messed up these people were. When you read about these people and the kind of decisions they made you seriously question their ability to run any kind of state in long haul. And I don't see any kind of "moderate" coup happening.
I'm pretty sure a lot people people realise how messed up nazi were
Well at least maybe in the sadism departement that is, I admit corruption and incompetence of the nazi (outside of when they are portray in comedy) tend to be underestimated
The instant cries of "ASB" regarding this post are offensive. The OP simply asked what the world would be like if (regardless of the reasons) Nazi Germany had won WW2 and achieved all of its desired aims. This is one of the main staples of literary alternate history and is worth exploring. It is also not truly ASB, just virtually impossible given what we know about Hitler, Nazisim, and the disparate economic potential of the Axis vs the Allies.
I'm pretty sure a lot people people realise how messed up nazi were
Well at least maybe in the sadism departement that is, I admit corruption and incompetence of the nazi (outside of when they are portray in comedy) tend to be underestimated
I'm not sure people do. Most people understand that the Nazi's were bad, but I think a lot of people fail to realize how evil they were (just look at the amount of people who rank Stalin or Mao above Hitler in the "Who was history's biggest asshole?" contest). Hitler and the Nazi's managed to turn one of the largest and most powerful countries in Europe into a state devoted to murdering millions of people for lunatic reasons. The USSR did bad shit, but the Nazi's were a perversion.
I'd agree that people use "ASB" to mean "Extremely unlikely bordering on impossible", but it's just as offensive when someone asks an extremely unlikely outcome (such as "What would the world be like if the Nazi's won WW2?"), and then casually dismisses any attempt at plausibility with either "Who cares how they got there I just want to know!" or "This is supposed to be alternate history!"
The Reich winning WW II is exceptionally unlikely. It is barely possible if a series of POD occur, but is a very low order of probability event.
However, assuming the Reich won the war -
Virtually every Jew in Europe, excepting those who made it to Switzerland (this assumes that Hitler decides to leave that hedgehog alone), Sweden, and ironically, based on history, Spain and Portugal is murdered.
Roughly 80% of Poland's pre-war population is worked to death, many of them "exterminated through labor" (got to give credit where its due, the Nazis were not shy about admitting what they were doing) in the complete deconstruction of Warsaw and other major "Slavic" cities. The remainder of the "Slavic" population is in chattel slavery under German plantation masters denied any education leaving Polish as a dead language with no written form while young children/infants with "Aryan" features are sent to the Reich to be adopted by Party families and raised as good Germans.
The Slavic peoples of the European portions of the USSR are reduced by the same methods as used in Poland. Moscow is quite literally wiped off the map, by slave labor (there's that Extermination through Labor thing again) with no stone left to show it ever existed. Leningrad/St. Petersburg is totally destroyed, replaced with a massive lake. German plantations, based around land grants given to Heer veterans (with senior officers getting larger tracts than lower ranks) dominate the region, along with industrial sites being run by German overseers to extract materials for Reich Industry. A substantial portion of the population is also transported to the Reich as forced labor. a low intensity war is on-going along the frontier where the Waffen SS "bloods" new recruits
Greater Germany features some of the most substantial public work projects ever seen, with art objects looted from the entire European Continent on display in museums, truly massive dressed stone buildings, and other structures designed by Albert Speer for his Fuhrer. (this assumes that there is an extended period without bombing) Hitler, in a victorious T/L may well live considerably longer than is sometimes imagined. His medical conditions were clearly stress induced/exacerbated, with a early victory (and any Reich Victory has to be early, after mid 1943 the game is up) this will not be the case.
Western Europe is encased in a heavy fortification belt to guard against any enemy incursion. The labor for this work is provided by slave labor from the "East". Puppet (or at least Fascist true believer, Reich approved) governments rule. Gestapo and national secret police snuff any dissent with dissenters deported to "the East".
Despite control of the Europe, the Reich suffers from massive shortages due to trade embargoes by the West (possibly even enforced by naval action) that limit access to everything from chromium to tin to rubber. The general economy is worse than the USSR even at its nadir. Military spending consumes roughly half of the Reich's budget. Inner Germany is vastly better off than any other country with whatever is available going to the Inner Germany. Education, especially in the sciences is far below the Soviet standard. This is due to the Party's disdain for, even hostility to, any sciences that do not match up with Party ideology.
Overall you have a police state run by ideological puritans following a faith built on racial superiority and fueled by the lives of anyone the Party finds of lesser value.
BTW: excepting the embargoes and the last sentence, everything above is based on actual Nazi plans.
However, assuming the Reich won the war -
Virtually every Jew in Europe, excepting those who made it to Switzerland (this assumes that Hitler decides to leave that hedgehog alone), Sweden, and ironically, based on history, Spain and Portugal is murdered.
Roughly 80% of Poland's pre-war population is worked to death, many of them "exterminated through labor" (got to give credit where its due, the Nazis were not shy about admitting what they were doing) in the complete deconstruction of Warsaw and other major "Slavic" cities. The remainder of the "Slavic" population is in chattel slavery under German plantation masters denied any education leaving Polish as a dead language with no written form while young children/infants with "Aryan" features are sent to the Reich to be adopted by Party families and raised as good Germans.
The Slavic peoples of the European portions of the USSR are reduced by the same methods as used in Poland. Moscow is quite literally wiped off the map, by slave labor (there's that Extermination through Labor thing again) with no stone left to show it ever existed. Leningrad/St. Petersburg is totally destroyed, replaced with a massive lake. German plantations, based around land grants given to Heer veterans (with senior officers getting larger tracts than lower ranks) dominate the region, along with industrial sites being run by German overseers to extract materials for Reich Industry. A substantial portion of the population is also transported to the Reich as forced labor. a low intensity war is on-going along the frontier where the Waffen SS "bloods" new recruits
Greater Germany features some of the most substantial public work projects ever seen, with art objects looted from the entire European Continent on display in museums, truly massive dressed stone buildings, and other structures designed by Albert Speer for his Fuhrer. (this assumes that there is an extended period without bombing) Hitler, in a victorious T/L may well live considerably longer than is sometimes imagined. His medical conditions were clearly stress induced/exacerbated, with a early victory (and any Reich Victory has to be early, after mid 1943 the game is up) this will not be the case.
Western Europe is encased in a heavy fortification belt to guard against any enemy incursion. The labor for this work is provided by slave labor from the "East". Puppet (or at least Fascist true believer, Reich approved) governments rule. Gestapo and national secret police snuff any dissent with dissenters deported to "the East".
Despite control of the Europe, the Reich suffers from massive shortages due to trade embargoes by the West (possibly even enforced by naval action) that limit access to everything from chromium to tin to rubber. The general economy is worse than the USSR even at its nadir. Military spending consumes roughly half of the Reich's budget. Inner Germany is vastly better off than any other country with whatever is available going to the Inner Germany. Education, especially in the sciences is far below the Soviet standard. This is due to the Party's disdain for, even hostility to, any sciences that do not match up with Party ideology.
Overall you have a police state run by ideological puritans following a faith built on racial superiority and fueled by the lives of anyone the Party finds of lesser value.
BTW: excepting the embargoes and the last sentence, everything above is based on actual Nazi plans.
tenthring
Banned
I'm pretty sure a lot people people realise how messed up nazi were
Well at least maybe in the sadism departement that is, I admit corruption and incompetence of the nazi (outside of when they are portray in comedy) tend to be underestimated
There is a contingent of people who think they were brilliant people who nearly conquered the world against impossible odds because of how powerful they were. That only if a few decisions get made different/Hitler is a little different/someone else takes over in a coup/etc that everything would work out great. That National Socialism was really a great ideology to run a country on if only you got rid of the killing and softened up the leadership a bit.
This is all nonsense of course. The leadership of the Nazi's was not just sadistic, but flat out incompetent as well. And their government policy was a total disaster, including their economic policy.
Essentially what happened is they beat two vastly inferior enemies (Poland, Russia in 1941 with no officer corp and the complete element of surprise). They beat one decent (but with its own problems) opponent in France in 1940 mainly because France choose the absolute worst strategy to go up against the German strategy that was chosen. It looks impressive because of how long WWI took, but WWI took place using WWI technology. If the German army of 1914 had WWII era technology they would have steamrolled the French too. In fact that group was way better then the Nazi's it was just the wrong era.
This combined with the myth that the Nazi's saved Germany from the depression builds up the idea of these powerful people that just went a little wrong. And while I will assume a great deal of competence to the German soldiers on the ground the top levels of Nazi leadership were a joke.
Hitler's plans for his grand capital city would bankrupt and impoverish Germany while his plans for the East would put German troops into an endless insurgent fight that makes Vietnam look like nothing which would massively exhaust the public support of both the German military and the German public over time.
The Nazi party with Hitler and Himmler's post war planning if one can call it that will become damn unpopular fairly quickly with the German populous as well as much of the armed forces.
And that's the scariest thing. One could read that and say it was written by an author with a fetish for dystopias. But it was actually proposed, and even partly implemented, in the real world. That a group such as the Nazis enjoyed that much sucess, even as short-lived and doomed to fail as it was, should always remain as a sobering reminder to all of us.