WI Nazi Germany made an attempt to reconquer former German colonies

[kenmac]

Simply quoting port capacity numbers makes no sense, since it implies that everything will run with perfect smoothness and the British will make no effort to interfere.

In OTL they ran at half capacity but unlike this situation they Axis dont have air superiority and Tobruk will remain in Axis hands.

Why would the Italians agree to this? Mussolini was loath to look like a puppet of Hitler's, and only called on German assistance when he felt he had no other choice.

I would think getting the Sudan, Egypt and keeping all East Africa would appeal to him.

If it were as simple as that, Operation Sealion would have been not only possible, but easy. But it's not as simple as that, and it wouldn't work. The Germans, after all, had air superiority over Malta for years, but that didn't prevent Royal Navy submarines from using it as a base from which to tear apart Italian and German supply convoys, did it?

It is nothing like Operation Sealion which was an invasion across one of the worst water ways in the world against an equal air power and superior naval power.

Here we have a supply landing protected by air superiority and a very large Italian fleet into ports that will allow enough logistical support for an easy victory in N Africa.

 

[Anaxagoras]

In OTL they ran at half capacity but unlike this situation they Axis dont have air superiority and Tobruk will remain in Axis hands.

This has been thoroughly debunked by other posters already, and I see no reason to repeat what they have already said.

I would think getting the Sudan, Egypt and keeping all East Africa would appeal to him.

Yes, but only if he could get them himself, without German help. You need to understand the personality of Mussolini.

Here we have a supply landing protected by air superiority and a very large Italian fleet into ports that will allow enough logistical support for an easy victory in N Africa.

The Luftwaffe and the Italian Fleet failed to protect Axis supply convoys in the Mediterranean IOTL, and you're not offering any POD to suggest that things would be different ITTL. As I have said before, your entire proposal ignores the existence of the Royal Navy.

And even if you get the vast amount of supplies and troops you speak of into the North African ports, how do you then get them to the front lines? There was no railroad network in North Africa, and not much of a road network. Even if the entire output of the German war industry was sitting in the North African ports, you don't seem to understand the virtually impossible task of transporting it over thousands of miles of desert with no railroad.

 

[kenmac]

This has been thoroughly debunked by other posters already, and I see no reason to repeat what they have already said.

What has been debunked exactly?

Yes, but only if he could get them himself, without German help. You need to understand the personality of Mussolini.

Mussolini was persuaded to follow Hitlers way on a number of occasions.

The Luftwaffe and the Italian Fleet failed to protect Axis supply convoys in the Mediterranean IOTL, and you're not offering any POD to suggest that things would be different ITTL. As I have said before, your entire proposal ignores the existence of the Royal Navy.

A fraction of the Lufftwaffe protected the supply convoys in OTL enough to land 72 thousand tons a month.
Now in this case with a vastly greater Luftwaffe force available the Royal Navy in going to realy want to avoid this zone more than it did in OTL.

And even if you get the vast amount of supplies and troops you speak of into the North African ports, how do you then get them to the front lines? There was no railroad network in North Africa, and not much of a road network. Even if the entire output of the German war industry was sitting in the North African ports, you don't seem to understand the virtually impossible task of transporting it over thousands of miles of desert with no railroads.

It isnt impossible at all.
Rommel managed it with a much smaller force of trucks.
Now with no war in Russia they will be a vast amount more trucks available for this.
Not to mention a much greater air transport force.
Shall we go through the figures for trucks used for Rommel now and what he could have had available with no Barbarossa?

 

[Anaxagoras]

Mussolini was persuaded to follow Hitlers way on a number of occasions.

Only when he had no other choice. For example, Hitler offered German troops for the invasion of Greece, which Mussolini turned down, because he wanted all the glory for himself. He certainly would not have been willing to turn over Italy and its African possessions to Germany in the manner you speak of.

A fraction of the Lufftwaffe protected the supply convoys in OTL enough to land 72 thousand tons a month.
Now in this case with a vastly greater Luftwaffe force available the Royal Navy in going to realy want to avoid this zone more than it did in OTL.

Well, the Royal Navy didn't evacuate Great Britain when the entire Luftwaffe s arrayed against them in 1940, did they? At this point in the war, the Luftwaffe was extremely deficient in anti-shipping capabilities, having little training in torpedo tactics and few bomb designs large enough to sink major naval warships.

And where are you going to put them all? Are you going to wave a magic wand and cause dozens of new airfields to come into existence out of thin air?

Rommel managed it with a much smaller force of trucks.
Now with no war in Russia they will be a vast amount more trucks available for this.
Not to mention a much greater air transport force.
Shall we go through the figures for trucks used for Rommel now and what he could have had available with no Barbarossa?

But trucks require fuel, too. Even if you wave your magic wand and create an inifite number of trucks, the law of diminishing returns will always minimize the supplies available at the front line, and the farther you get from your supply base, the greater the strain will be. Look at how the Allied offensive on the Western Front was halted in September of 1944.

In any case, we're not talking about lacking trucks. We're talking about a virtually non-existent transportation network. The Germans would have no railroads and only extremely limited road network. Even with all the trucks in the world, cramming them onto an insufficient road network will do you no good at all. You'll just end up with endless traffic jams (perfect targets for the RAF or Royal Navy shore bombardment) and the same amount of supplies arriving at the front.

 

[kenmac]

Only when he had no other choice. For example, Hitler offered German troops for the invasion of Greece, which Mussolini turned down, because he wanted all the glory for himself. He certainly would not have been willing to turn over Italy and its African possessions to Germany in the manner you speak of.

No he didnt.

Well, the Royal Navy didn't evacuate Great Britain when the entire Luftwaffe s arrayed against them in 1940, did they? At this point in the war, the Luftwaffe was extremely deficient in anti-shipping capabilities, having little training in torpedo tactics and few bomb designs large enough to sink major naval warships.

The Royal Navy avoided the channel just as the RN avoided in daylight as much as possible the area around Libya and Southern Italy.
Would you like me to list the ships sank by German airpower?

And where are you going to put them all? Are you going to wave a magic wand and cause dozens of new airfields to come into existence out of thin air?

The aircraft already exist they were used in the Battle of Britain and sent East to prepare for Barbarossa.

But trucks require fuel, too. Even if you wave your magic wand and create an inifite number of trucks, the law of diminishing returns will always minimize the supplies available at the front line, and the farther you get from your supply base, the greater the strain will be. Look at how the Allied offensive on the Western Front was halted in September of 1944.

Lets leave magic out of it and stick to facts shall we.
The trucks already exist they were to be used in Barbarossa and guess what fuel they could use?
Could it be the fuel used intended for Barbarossa?
Lets remember at this point the USSR is sending lots of fuel to Germany.

In any case, we're not talking about lacking trucks. We're talking about a virtually non-existent transportation network. The Germans would have no railroads and only extremely limited road network. Even with all the trucks in the world, cramming them onto an insufficient road network will do you no good at all. You'll just end up with endless traffic jams (perfect targets for the RAF or Royal Navy shore bombardment) and the same amount of supplies arriving at the front.

Rommel would have loved a few more trucks in OTL.
He would have liked the air cover for them too which in has in this case.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Lets leave magic out of it and stick to facts shall we.

That's pretty much what we have been saying to you since the beginning of this thread.

 

[kenmac]

That's pretty much what we have been saying to you since the beginning of this thread.

Yes facts and figures like the things im providing.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Anaxagoras,

Do yourself a favor and don't feed the trolls.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Anaxagoras]

Anaxagoras,

Do yourself a favor and don't feed the trolls.


Regards,
Bill

Advice taken.

 

[AMF]

Only when he had no other choice. For example, Hitler offered German troops for the invasion of Greece, which Mussolini turned down, because he wanted all the glory for himself. He certainly would not have been willing to turn over Italy and its African possessions to Germany in the manner you speak of.

Hello kenmac, and welcome back! You certainly are not trolling, and you have been treated a bit unfairly by some people, but that does not mean that I agree with everything you say.
Anaxagoras is right in the statement shown above: Hitler did offer two airborne divisions to Mussolini during their meeting in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence on 28 Octobre 1940, (when Italian troops were just beginning to attack Greece) and Mussolini turned the offer down. He did not accept German help before the situation in the Balkans and North Africa became desperate for him.

 

[kenmac]

Hello kenmac, and welcome back! You certainly are not trolling, and you have been treated a bit unfairly by some people, but that does not mean that I agree with everything you say.
Anaxagoras is right in the statement shown above: Hitler did offer two airborne divisions to Mussolini during their meeting in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence on 28 Octobre 1940, (when Italian troops were just beginning to attack Greece) and Mussolini turned the offer down. He did not accept German help before the situation in the Balkans and North Africa became desperate for him.

This was after the invasion had already began.
Hitler found out about it a day before and war furious.
On a side note Ribbentrop and his foreign office staff wrote up a message for Hitler to sign asking Mussolini not to go ahead with his invasion but Hitler refused to sign it so as not to upset his relations with Mussolini.

 

[kenmac]

Hello kenmac, and welcome back! You certainly are not trolling, and you have been treated a bit unfairly by some people, but that does not mean that I agree with everything you say.
Anaxagoras is right in the statement shown above: Hitler did offer two airborne divisions to Mussolini during their meeting in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence on 28 Octobre 1940, (when Italian troops were just beginning to attack Greece) and Mussolini turned the offer down. He did not accept German help before the situation in the Balkans and North Africa became desperate for him.

Let’s just say Mussolini did refuse a forceful demand from Hitler to station troops in Libya in this timeline his refusals would all end after Operation Compass so the conquest of Egypt would still go ahead.

 

[AMF]

They simply had np physical way of doing it. So, failure, I guess. The neast thing would have been making Vichy hand over its share, further alienating French sentiment (in fact, probably causing thosse abandoned colonies, and perhaps others, to go Gaulist).

Guys, Nazi Germany *did* make a concerted effort to regain the German colobnies. It was a war aim. They decided the best way to do it was to beat Britain and France and take them back in the peace treaty.

Yes, that didn't work out, but it's not like they didn't try.

I agree completely with I Blame Communism in so far as there was absolutely no physical way for Germany to reconquer her former colonies in the course of World War II. This point has been repeated by several other posters. This however, does not preclude the possibility for the Axis of winning the war by other means. There is also the theoretical possibility (no more at the moment) of winning so decisively that the colonies are handed back as part of the peace treaty. One might argue that this, too, is impossible, but it does not strike me as far-fetched as any attempt to occupy the colonies in the course of the war itself.

To Carlton Bach's assertion that regaining the colonies was one of Germany's war aims: Yes, Hitler's offer to Britain of what he considered to be a "compromise peace" also made handing back the former German colonies a condition. Britain was to be "compensated" by taking part in the carving up of the French colonies. This is what Jodl noted in his diary for 20 May 1940, and this is what Hitler told the journalist Karl Henry von Wiegand, who worked for the Hearst Press, on 13 June 1940.

On the other hand, getting colonies for Germany outside Europe never was such a "fixed" aim to Hitler as was "Living Space in the East". In the Twenties, he was even willing to give up the aim of acquiring colonies, if this made an alliance with Britain possible. After he had learned in 1935 that the Anglo-German naval agreement did not lead to an alliance, there was an era of ambivalence for him until 1937, when he began considering Britain a hated enemy. Later still, from 1938 onwards, he planned to regain colonies after establishing complete hegemony in Europe.

The high time for German colonial planning (or wishful thinking) was after the defeat of France, when there were plannings in the Kriegsmarine for a colonial empire reaching from Dakar to the Dutch East Indies. Certainly these phantasies did not influence any operational planning of the Kriegsmarine.

 

[AMF]

Kenmac has repeatedly stated that the Axis ports in North Africa operated at half capacity only, namely here, here and here. It was Anaxagoras claim that this has been proven false.

This has been thoroughly debunked by other posters already, and I see no reason to repeat what they have already said. .... ..... ...... .......

It seems that kenmac's claim was near the truth and may even be perfectly true. I have already made a post about the amount of supplies that reached the Axis in 1941 here. There I stated that the montlhy average amount of supplies that reached the Axis ports was 71,099.42 metrical tons. According to the same source, the highest amount of supplies that reached the ports in a month of 1941 was 125,076 tons, the amount that was unloaded in June. So at the very least, the ports can unload an amount that was far higher than the actual monthly average.

One should also consider that the amount of supplies sent from Italy was higher still, 133,331 metrical tons. And since neither Hitler nor Mussolini is likely to have interfered with the composition of the convoys, and neither the Italian nor the German armed forces are the Keystone Cops, it is very unlikely that convoys were underway that could not possibly be unloaded. So a port capacity of 133,331 tons a month and, therefore nearly double the actual one, is very likely. Of course this does not at all preclude the possibility that the capacity is still a bit higher than the amount actually despatched from Italy in June 1941, and that kenmac's claim is not only nearly true, but perfectly true.
My source is page 648 of this book:
http://lccn.loc.gov/85100692

The English translation of this book is this:
http://lccn.loc.gov/92040949

 

[kenmac]

Kenmac has repeatedly stated that the Axis ports in North Africa operated at half capacity only, namely here, here and here. It was Anaxagoras claim that this has been proven false.



It seems that kenmac's claim was near the truth and may even be perfectly true. I have already made a post about the amount of supplies that reached the Axis in 1941 here. There I stated that the montlhy average amount of supplies that reached the Axis ports was 71,099.42 metrical tons. According to the same source, the highest amount of supplies that reached the ports in a month of 1941 was 125,076 tons, the amount that was unloaded in June. So at the very least, the ports can unload an amount that was far higher than the actual monthly average.

One should also consider that the amount of supplies sent from Italy was higher still, 133,331 metrical tons. And since neither Hitler nor Mussolini is likely to have interfered with the composition of the convoys, and neither the Italian nor the German armed forces are the Keystone Cops, it is very unlikely that convoys were underway that could not possibly be unloaded. So a port capacity of 133,331 tons a month and, therefore nearly double the actual one, is very likely. Of course this does not at all preclude the possibility that the capacity is still a bit higher than the amount actually despatched from Italy in June 1941, and that kenmac's claim is not only nearly true, but perfectly true.
My source is page 648 of this book:
http://lccn.loc.gov/85100692

The English translation of this book is this:
http://lccn.loc.gov/92040949

Well thank you some common sense at last.

 

[Joke Insurance]

Glad to see that this thread went back to somewhat of relevancy.

 

[CalBear]

Glad to see that this thread went back to somewhat of relevancy.

11 MONTHS after this fully insane thread died, having been mostly driven by a Banned ex-member, and you decide to post this?

Let the justly dead lie.