WI: Nationalist China received German and Italian equipment tooling before 1937

This scenario has some historic basis, assuming that the tooling for production of german and Italian equipment actually makes it to nationalist china. what if at beast the nationalist had acquired the too9ling to locally manufacture their own licensed version of German, Italian and captured Chezoslovaikan equipment.

For Tanks, the Pz.35(t), Early model Panzer III and early model panzer IV are the best they can get historically.

For Aircraft, things such as. The Junkers JU 87, Heinkel He 112 and Heinkel He 111 at best.

For small arms, anything that the Germans and Italian had the tooling for at the time.

For artillery, any design from late wwI up to 1936 that both countries had or came into possession for tooling of.

Also, assume that Germany sent advisers over to nationalist china to train the Chinese nationalists to make and use them.

Edit:Accident's were made.
 
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This scenario has some historic basis, assuming that the tooling for production of german and Italian equipment actually makes it to nationalist china. what if at beast the nationalist had acquired the too9ling to locally manufacture their own licensed version of German, Italian and captured Chezoslovaikan equipment.

For Tanks, the Pz.35(t), Early model Panzer III and early model panzer IV are the best they can get historically.

For Aircraft, things such as. The Junkers JU 87, Heinkel He 112 and Heinkel He 111 at best.

For small arms, anything that the Germans and Italian had the tooling for at the time.

For artillery, any design from late wwI up to 1936 that both countries had or came into possession for tooling of.

Also, assume that Germany sent advisers over to nationalist china to train the Chinese nationalists to make ans sue them.

Technically they did have a military mission. The Japanese complained and it was withdrawn.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Technically they did have a military mission. The Japanese complained and it was withdrawn.

Also, given the pressures of the war, I have a hard time seeing the ROC having enough economic slack to manage any significant manufacturing of artillery, armored vehicles, or aircraft. Historically, their heavy industry and technical manufacturing output was pretty close to minimal.
 
Also, given the pressures of the war, I have a hard time seeing the ROC having enough economic slack to manage any significant manufacturing of artillery, armored vehicles, or aircraft. Historically, their heavy industry and technical manufacturing output was pretty close to minimal.
Not to mention that said manufacturing centers were concentrated along the eastern Chinese coast and suspect to being destroyed or captured by a Japanese invasion like IOTL.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Not to mention that said manufacturing centers were concentrated along the eastern Chinese coast and suspect to being destroyed or captured by a Japanese invasion like IOTL.

True. That reality underlies the low (historical) production totals.
 
This scenario has some historic basis, assuming that the tooling for production of german and Italian equipment actually makes it to nationalist china. what if at beast the nationalist had acquired the too9ling to locally manufacture their own licensed version of German, Italian and captured Chezoslovaikan equipment.

For Tanks, the Pz.35(t), Early model Panzer III and early model panzer IV are the best they can get historically.

For Aircraft, things such as. The Junkers JU 87, Heinkel He 112 and Heinkel He 111 at best.

For small arms, anything that the Germans and Italian had the tooling for at the time.

For artillery, any design from late wwI up to 1936 that both countries had or came into possession for tooling of.

Also, assume that Germany sent advisers over to nationalist china to train the Chinese nationalists to make and use them.

Edit:Accident's were made.

This would assume an early enough POD to set up arsenals in western China.

German assistance ended by 1938 so Panzer III and IV are too early. Panzer 35(t) forerunner was the TNH tank so this is possible, but Czechoslovakia was not part of the Reich yet. If we’re going outside the Axis, why not Landsverk L-60?

The aircraft selection is sound but China will soon run out of spare parts when Germany pulls out. Same thing happened to OTL Italian aircraft. Wikipedia says China had He-111s. I would recommend the SM.79 Sparviero as it was of simple construction with aluminum tube frame, plywood and fabric. The radials can be replaced by American engines. A good combination of primary and advanced trainers would also be important for training new pilots and being easy to make.

Chinese small arms were just fine, Mauser rifles and Zb.26 lmg. The real issue is increasing production numbers. Maybe get Zeiss help to make some sniper scopes. Better yet import them. Beretta MAB38 and a suitable Italian or German flamethrower would make a difference.

As for artillery, nothing over 105mm, 75mm mountain guns would be most useful considering local logistical limitations. That Italian 47mm anti-tank gun would be nice, and if they have the Panzer I chassis why not build the Panzerjäger I? More importantly good AAA would be a must. The Germans had the best, from their 37mm to 88mm flak guns.

But artillery production requires a steel industry to support it. Pre-war China would be better off importing as many as they can rather than attempting the impossible task of industrializing the whole country in a couple of years. AAA last a long time anyways, unlike field arty and small arms.
 
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Cant' recall off the top of my head where, but in one of the Northern Provinces a Brit expat was heavily involved in the manufacture of arms. IIRC he helped them with the Hanyang 88 rifle (which means it was at the Mukden Arsenal, so Zhang Zoulin territory) AND mortars of various sizes. Mortars are very, very useful, and dead easy to manufacture compared to field artillery. You can make them (as did the arsenal) in very large calibers and on a wheeled mount, the only real drawback for them is that they will be outranged by field artillery. However if the Chinese can manufacture enough of them, they will be a hell of a lot harder for the Japanese to defeat. China needs arsenal's throughout its territories, all working with standardized plans.
 
Cant' recall off the top of my head where, but in one of the Northern Provinces a Brit expat was heavily involved in the manufacture of arms. IIRC he helped them with the Hanyang 88 rifle (which means it was at the Mukden Arsenal, so Zhang Zoulin territory) AND mortars of various sizes. Mortars are very, very useful, and dead easy to manufacture compared to field artillery. You can make them (as did the arsenal) in very large calibers and on a wheeled mount, the only real drawback for them is that they will be outranged by field artillery. However if the Chinese can manufacture enough of them, they will be a hell of a lot harder for the Japanese to defeat. China needs arsenal's throughout its territories, all working with standardized plans.
Thinking mortars myself. Talk of dealing with the Italians for SM-79 acft, well, those guys loved their 81mm mortars, and if they could strike a deal with the ruskies to grab some 120mm's, or even better, their 107mm version, hmmm...stuff would be easy to knock off in their own plants after the tap closed on dealing with the Axis powers, too. About mortars being outranged by normal artillery, well the two big Russkie rigs can pop out to 6 K's, and they can shoot and scoot to avoid counter battery. Once American LL kicks in, beg for lots of M1 carbines. Try to strike a deal with Mendoza Arms to keep a good 7.92x57 LMG in the mix if you can get the M1's, otherwise, hold your nose and get BARs, then dude 'em up to a "Colt Monitor"-like theme.
 
I'll have a trawl around the web later, but the large mortars they were producing were more in the category of 6" on a wheeled carriage. Would the Soviets grant a license to produce their 81mm? The Chinese were already making Stokes variations of useful caliber.
 
Thinking mortars myself. Talk of dealing with the Italians for SM-79 acft, well, those guys loved their 81mm mortars, and if they could strike a deal with the ruskies to grab some 120mm's, or even better, their 107mm version, hmmm...stuff would be easy to knock off in their own plants after the tap closed on dealing with the Axis powers, too. About mortars being outranged by normal artillery, well the two big Russkie rigs can pop out to 6 K's, and they can shoot and scoot to avoid counter battery. Once American LL kicks in, beg for lots of M1 carbines. Try to strike a deal with Mendoza Arms to keep a good 7.92x57 LMG in the mix if you can get the M1's, otherwise, hold your nose and get BARs, then dude 'em up to a "Colt Monitor"-like theme.

If you want mortars the French were the leaders. The Soviet 120mm was a variation of an earlier French design. The Chinese licensed the Stokes Brandt 60, 81, and 120mm mortars, but only the 81mm was in production in the 1930’s. The 60mm was produced from 1942 and the 120mm only in 1945. It would be relatively simple to get a head start on those. If we are expanding purchases to Allied powers, get the Universal Carrier to tow the 120mm mortars or have the 81mm mounted in the back.

As for light machine guns the Zb.26 was superior to the BAR, but it could use a larger 30 round magazine. Probably the ideal lmg for China was the British Besal for ease of production. Apart from lack of a cheap sub machinegun, they had a very good selection of small arms.
 
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