WI napoleon navy changes

longsword14

Banned
I'm not sure at all that you could have a screw ship in 1800, as the screw OTL was patented 1835 and not really made usable until 1839... in Britain.
Britain's superiority in technology decades into a Napoleonic scenario is not at all guaranteed. Continental Europe did not have the push for industrialisation early on but it did have the know-how. How long can the order be maintained, will it be stable etc are more important questions than various naval developments that could happen. The good news for post Napoleonic scenario is that the situation could only swing up from the rock bottom they had hit with ships and technology changing fast, the bad news is that the situation would still be bad at the moment and they would have to endure it for some time.
 
Coulomb
That may be the case - but the French officers were undoubtably significantly less experienced than their RN counterparts:

In the RN, of the 23 highest ranking officers of whom we have information, all had seen fleet action and all had at least 20 years service. Nine had fought in the most decisive actions of the previous fifty years (Finisterre, Lagos, Quiberon Bay and Battle of the Saints)

Of the French, only one (RAdm Bouvet) had commanded a ship in a fleet battle, and that only once. Of the flag officers, two had only just been promoted from Lieutenant and the third from sub-Lieutenant. Three of the captains had been promoted from lieutenant eleven sub-lieutenant, nine captains or masters of merchant ships, one a bosun, one a seaman and one has no records extant. (Sam Willis, Glorious First of June).

Though they lacked experience, the French were highly enthusiastic and motivated - their morale, unlike in some future battles, was very high. But the experience of their captains was a factor in the battle.

Hum, Bouvet was lieutenant in 1780, captain in 1790 ; Villaret was frigate captain in 1781, lieutenant in 1784, captain in 1793 ; Nielly was frigate lieutenant in 1778, sub-lieutenant in 1787, lieutenant in 1792, captain in 1793 ; Van Stabel was frigate lieutenant in 1782, ensign in 1790, captain in 1793. True, they had only experience in small units combat, but there was no ship-to-ship combat for the french navy between 1782 and 1794, and all still serving officers who were captains in 1782 were already promoted to flag rank in 1794.
 
I'm not sure at all that you could have a screw ship in 1800, as the screw OTL was patented 1835 and not really made usable until 1839... in Britain.
Coulomb had worked on the physical mechanism of the screw, but only theorically. That's why a best case with Borda and Jouffroy is necessary to the all thing.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Britain's superiority in technology decades into a Napoleonic scenario is not at all guaranteed.
If Napoleon gets into power you're still talking about things being pretty much as OTL up until about 1803 - his coup was quite contingent on events as were his early campaigns.
How long are you imagining it taking for Napoleon's France to get out steamships after the PoD?
Continental Europe did not have the push for industrialisation early on but it did have the know-how.
By the time of Napoleon taking power Britain's already making increasingly heavy use of steam power. The high pressure steam engine comes in in Britain about the same time Napoleon secures his position as Emperor (1805) and it took another thirty years for the first screw ship to come in after that.


Coulomb had worked on the physical mechanism of the screw, but only theorically. That's why a best case with Borda and Jouffroy is necessary to the all thing.
That does still assume that they can effectively come up with as many steamship related inventions themselves (and independent of the British baseline) as the entire world came up with over fifty years. If they manage the screw but no high pressure engine, for example, they end up with something that's really inefficient even compared to the paddle.
 
Coulomb


Hum, Bouvet was lieutenant in 1780, captain in 1790 ; Villaret was frigate captain in 1781, lieutenant in 1784, captain in 1793 ; Nielly was frigate lieutenant in 1778, sub-lieutenant in 1787, lieutenant in 1792, captain in 1793 ; Van Stabel was frigate lieutenant in 1782, ensign in 1790, captain in 1793. True, they had only experience in small units combat, but there was no ship-to-ship combat for the french navy between 1782 and 1794, and all still serving officers who were captains in 1782 were already promoted to flag rank in 1794.

So, save Bouvet, all promoted after the revolution then? That's exactly what I'm saying - they lack not only experience of fleet action but of command at first of June. A year from Lt to Captain is ridiculous. Three from ensign to captain? Even so they achieved their governments aims, but their defeat was at least partly as a result of the inexperience of their senior leadership
 

longsword14

Banned
@Saphroneth I am not talking about sudden improvement in Napoleon's navy but looking into a few realistic scenarios in which a post Napoleonic order exists. Steam engines jumping to the fore front in the early decade or two of 19th century is not realistic, a fact that I know and one you mentioned. My entire point was about the future.
In the future a Napoleonic France would be quite the force. Also post 1815 no other nation but Britain had the need to go on building a large navy to protect its colonies. This will not be the case in the scenario of which I was writing about.
 
So, save Bouvet, all promoted after the revolution then? That's exactly what I'm saying - they lack not only experience of fleet action but of command at first of June. A year from Lt to Captain is ridiculous. Three from ensign to captain? Even so they achieved their governments aims, but their defeat was at least partly as a result of the inexperience of their senior leadership
The scale of the ranks is not the same as in the RN. Before 1786, there was a Grand corps scale garde-marine (midshipman) -> ensign -> lieutenant -> captain and a Petit corps scale lieutenant de frégate -> capitaine de brûlot. After 1786, the scale was élève de la marine (midshipman) -> sub-lieutenant (former lieutenants de frégate) -> lieutenant (former ensigns and lieutenants) -> captain. Quite different from the RN midship -> lieutenant -> master and commander -> captain. In the french Navy, frigates and non-rated were normally commanded by lieutenants, while it is a post-captain billet in the RN. In term of experience, I find Bouvet had commanded at least the Audacieux, a 80, Villaret three non-rated, three frigates and a 74, Nielly two non-rated and a frigate, Van Stabel a privateer, two frigates and a 74 (Reviewing this last one, I find my first account of his carrier lacking : he must have been a sub-lieutenant in 1786 reform). As for the quick promotions, need I remind Nelson was promoted lieutenant in 1777, master and commander in 1778 and captain in 1779 or Collingwood lieutenant in 1775, master and commander 1179, captain in 1780 ?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
@Saphroneth I am not talking about sudden improvement in Napoleon's navy but looking into a few realistic scenarios in which a post Napoleonic order exists. Steam engines jumping to the fore front in the early decade or two of 19th century is not realistic, a fact that I know and one you mentioned. My entire point was about the future.
In the future a Napoleonic France would be quite the force. Also post 1815 no other nation but Britain had the need to go on building a large navy to protect its colonies. This will not be the case in the scenario of which I was writing about.
So you're talking about it taking, what, three or four decades?

I'm skeptical about the ability of Napoleon to maintain the drive to conquer Britain over that length of time. Actually, I'm not sure Napoleon can last that long - even if the steam liner comes in in 1830, two decades ahead of historical, he'd still be sixty and OTL he was quite ill by forty-five.
 

longsword14

Banned
So you're talking about it taking, what, three or four decades?

I'm skeptical about the ability of Napoleon to maintain the drive to conquer Britain over that length of time. Actually, I'm not sure Napoleon can last that long - even if the steam liner comes in in 1830, two decades ahead of historical, he'd still be sixty and OTL he was quite ill by forty-five.
I am not talking about Napoleon alone but the post settlement order.
 
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