WI Napoleon King of the Helenes?

Ivir Baggins · Jun 20, 2012

Huh. I thought it more likely that he'd end up as emperor of Chile or similar.

Alstein · Jun 20, 2012

How about Nappy to the US, with Ney as well (assume the North Carolina Schoolteacher legend is true).

Would any European country declare war on the US is Nappy ended up there and the US refused to give him over (and I suspect they wouldn't)

Elfwine · Jun 20, 2012

Alstein said:
How about Nappy to the US, with Ney as well (assume the North Carolina Schoolteacher legend is true).

Would any European country declare war on the US is Nappy ended up there and the US refused to give him over (and I suspect they wouldn't)

Why would the US want to let him in?

And why wouldn't they hand him over? Sheer spite?

Colonel Troutstrangler · Jun 21, 2012

Wow!

Food for thought there! Thank you for the thoughtful response. I will have to research the various factions as I do not have that deep a knowledge of the events there. However, I have managed to obtain some contemporary history books of the period (actually I see from the cover i bought them in 1978! - Yes I am an old fart!) and will write with the views and mores of the period. So incedental things like massacering 10000 and shooting a reigning lord will not count for much! (why ruin a good story!) As for the American angle alluded to above, that will not happen. The Americans will send an ambassador, but watch out for who he is?!?!

So - back to the book shelf. --- Ok dear, yes I will wash up, and vacuum first! --- women!!!

cimon · Jun 21, 2012

Elfwine said:
He is only an Austrian subject as Duke of Reichstadt. Not for Greece, which remains outside the Austrian Empire. So Austria gains nothing from this except seeing him as - if all goes right for Napoleon - king of an independent realm, instead of merely holding an all but honorary title.

And Napoleon II waging war on the Ottomans meaning the Ottoman Empire is demolished is . . .

Improbable, to say the least.

Even assuming he doesn't get tuberculous as in OTL.

Elfwine,
Your knowledge of heraldric connections is somewhat lacking and,there is also a precedent for what I outlined:
When Marie Louise,ex-emperess of France,returned to Austria,her nationality and title as royal princes was restored.Her son was a close member of the Austrian Imperial family.If Napoleon died as a king of the Helenes,his son with Marie Louise,the crown prince would succed him,but at that time he was a minor and he would require a regent or regents;exactly what hapenned in Greece with king Otto OTL.A board of three regents was established(Armansburg,Eydek and another Bavarian).Exactly the same would happen and this time and the regents would be ministers of finance,war and foreign affairs,all three beauties loyal servants of Metternich and as the real regents did,in any upheaval they would bring Austrian army to restore peace and that army would permenently stay in Greece;whatever else one might think Greece would act as an extension of Austrian sovereignty in the Mediterannean;is it difficult to guess the second episode of the serial?

Elfwine · Jun 21, 2012

cimon said:
Elfwine,
Your knowledge of heraldric connections is somewhat lacking and,there is also a precedent for what I outlined:
When Marie Louise,ex-emperess of France,returned to Austria,her nationality and title as royal princes was restored.Her son was a close member of the Austrian Imperial family.If Napoleon died as a king of the Helenes,his son with Marie Louise,the crown prince would succed him,but at that time he was a minor and he would require a regent or regents;exactly what hapenned in Greece with king Otto OTL.A board of three regents was established(Armansburg,Eydek and another Bavarian).Exactly the same would happen and this time and the regents would be ministers of finance,war and foreign affairs,all three beauties loyal servants of Metternich and as the real regents did,in any upheaval they would bring Austrian army to restore peace and that army would permenently stay in Greece;whatever else one might think Greece would act as an extension of Austrian sovereignty in the Mediterannean;is it difficult to guess the second episode of the serial?

It is clear that you think that being the grandson of an Emperor is the same as being his subject. Napoleon I died when his son was ten OTL, this scenario seems to assume that he lives at least another few years - how many more is unclear. So his son might be of age by the time he dies.

Also, why on earth would Metternich want to send in the Austrian army to help a Bonaparte (and of course, even if he does, "having to deal with upheaval" is NOT bloodless, so so much for taking it without a shot being fired) ? Why would it permanently stay in Greece when absolutely no Austrian interests are served? It doesn't make the Habsburg Empire stronger, it doesn't weaken its rivals enough to justify the commitment (at most its an embarrassment) . . .

The second episode would be revealing that Metternich was replaced by a body double, because that's the only way I can imagine him not going "Napoleon is loose? This time, we kill him." That, or Option D in some weird Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun fantasy scenario.

The whole scenario seems to be "If Napoleon is awesome, and Romantics are awesome, and Greeks are awesome, all three together is at least three times as awesome!" regardless of the fact no one wants it.

Clandango · Jun 21, 2012

Maybe we should look over Napoleon's invasion of Egypt went and how well he did with limited reinforcements far from home.

Colonel Troutstrangler · Jun 21, 2012

The whole scenario seems to be "If Napoleon is awesome, and Romantics are awesome, and Greeks are awesome, all three together is at least three times as awesome!" regardless of the fact no one wants it.[/QUOTE]

Not so! I happen to think the romantics were misguided at best and possibly just bloody fools with too much money for their own good. The Greeks? mearly an opportunity for an adventure story - like many other stories on this site, and Napoleon? If you have read my other time line, you would know I am no friend of the Ogre!!!

I have not got into this properly yet - but i will, and when I do it is very possible that there will be no good ending for those involved. It might be possible to go somewhere with it but we will have to await and see the outcome.

After all - I am at the mercy of my fingers, and thier relationship with the haunted keks on my tripe writer - and what tripe it is they write!

I mean only to entertain, but it must be based on fact. That I got you lot going as this thread has so far,

to me is a success. Thank you for your involvement!

Alstein · Jun 22, 2012

Elfwine said:
Why would the US want to let him in?

And why wouldn't they hand him over? Sheer spite?

What has Nappy done to the US? I figure the Louisiana purchase balances out any impressment. If it becomes a close call, I think Ney coming out of hiding with his sensational story would sway American public opinion some, as would Nappy's likely assertion that he just wants to be in America, and not have any more adventures (he'd be able to live comfortably as a celebrity, plus you have Bonapartes in America as is)

Also, what better way to show your independence then to refuse say, an Austrian or Russian demand ? (I don't think the Brits would bother declaring war again)

The only way I see the US handing Nappy over is if they have to face an alliance of European powers.

Elfwine · Jun 22, 2012

Alstein said:
What has Nappy done to the US? I figure the Louisiana purchase balances out any impressment. If it becomes a close call, I think Ney coming out of hiding with his sensational story would sway American public opinion some, as would Nappy's likely assertion that he just wants to be in America, and not have any more adventures (he'd be able to live comfortably as a celebrity, plus you have Bonapartes in America as is)

Also, what better way to show your independence then to refuse say, an Austrian or Russian demand ? (I don't think the Brits would bother declaring war again)

The only way I see the US handing Nappy over is if they have to face an alliance of European powers.

What has Nappy done that makes the US want to take him in? Also, would the US believe that Napoleon just wants to live in America? They haven't spent a generation fighting him, but they haven't been unaware of European events either.

Not sure what story you have in mind?

Also, refusing to turn him over doesn't show American independence, it shows American desire poke from a safe distance (as neither Austria or Russia have much power projection ability at this distance - although I suspect Britain, which does, would be happy to point that out).

Clandango · Jun 22, 2012

Plenty of people were in foreign payrolls at the time. The military governor of the US's western territories was being bribed by the Spanish. Is there anyone who might support the Corsican?

willbell · Jun 22, 2012

Napoleon might be allowed out of spite during the war of 1812, being an enemy of Britain would make Napoleon much more popular, and piss off the british. Or would the war be over?

Tongera · Jun 22, 2012

Assuming that Napoleon can be the king of the Hellenes (ignoring the fact that all the great powers don't want him to be king), what would he and his dynasty be able to achieve?

cimon · Jun 23, 2012

Tongera said:
Assuming that Napoleon can be the king of the Hellenes (ignoring the fact that all the great powers don't want him to be king), what would he and his dynasty be able to achieve?

Evidently that is in the hands(or actually in the mind) of the author....and I sincerely hope he continues the thread because,in my opinion,is a very original plot,and I can't wait for the next update.

cimon · Jul 26, 2012

corditeman said:
I think that Pasha would not be happy if this TL's a success... Snag is, it'd be a complete demolition job of the Ottoman Empire.

FYI, the Russians supported Capodistrias (a dictatorial figure) against the desires of France and England over the Battle of Poros. Da Capo's half-trained Greek army (trained in the French manner) sacked the town whilst the Russians attacked by sea. You have to be a Poriote, Hydran or Spetsean, to understand why Admiral Miaoulis is a hero for burning half the most potent ships of the Greek Navy in Poros harbour. Me, I'm in training for a philHellene.

Despite his remarks about the massacres of Muslims in the Morea, I would like to remind our Ottoman friend of the massacres of Greeks in the Morea and the planned resettlement with Algerian Muslims. This was only stopped by the Battle of Navarino Bay. I respectfully suggest that neither side had clean hands but that events such as the massacre at Chios should be examined.

Coming back to the TL, Napoleon would probably have been acceptable to Russia and France - as long as he fought in and for Greece. Britain would never have trusted him and historically might not have granted the two loans that funded Greek independence (and were mostly wasted by people such as Kapodistrias). So, carry on.

Not Kapodistrias,he came later,but the Phanari clique of Mavrocordatos-Kolettis.

cimon · Jul 26, 2012

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Is there any reason for this personal attack? All I said was that Napoleon is a terrible choice to participate as it would turn everyone against the Greeks. The Greek Revolt failed on its own in OTL - it was the intervention of the Powers that secured Greek independence. If you have a POD which removes that intervention, then I don't see how what I said is irrationally pro-Ottoman. Participation by some other less contentious hero and the support he could bring with him is a perfectly plausible scenario. But you're not going to see a total collapse of the empire based on a Greek revolt - even if the empire were that fragile, the powers aren't going to allow it.

No it didn't!That's how you want to see it,but in reality Turkey had finshed since 1824 and Ibrahim was fighting..for Peloponnesus that would be his if he won, but Mani wasn't easy and Maniates had given two sharp defeats to Ibrahim and what would you do about the islands like Hydra Spetsai and others whose combined fleets,although very inferior in ships and armament to the combined Ottoman/Aegyptian/Tynisian fleets had piled defeat upon defeat on them since 1821,witnessed and reported by senior naval officers serving in the Mediterranean to their HQs and their goverments in Europe? never mind about their comments about the abilities of Ottomans and Egyptians in the sea.

Colonel Troutstrangler · Oct 18, 2012

Due to freinds and popular support -

I will resurect this thread - I know I have given my self a headache, as I am in the process of re-writing "The Only Man in Prussia" but freinds "peckin mi head" and on line contributors supporting the good fight, have made me reconsider my retiring this time line. It may be some time before an update - but one will come! (I will have to relearn what i wrote)!

If you can contribute - please do. Why it should'nt happen are often the best, but replies as to why it should are also welcome!!!

Tongera · Oct 18, 2012

Colonel Troutstrangler said:
I will resurect this thread - I know I have given my self a headache, as I am in the process of re-writing "The Only Man in Prussia" but freinds "peckin mi head" and on line contributors supporting the good fight, have made me reconsider my retiring this time line. It may be some time before an update - but one will come! (I will have to relearn what i wrote)!

If you can contribute - please do. Why it should'nt happen are often the best, but replies as to why it should are also welcome!!!

Anything that is needed to be known?

Colonel Troutstrangler · Oct 25, 2012

Tongera said:
Anything that is needed to be known?

Thank you for the interest!

There are some things I could use, for example:
1 An estimation of the forces available to each faction in the Balkans
2 an estimation of the borders for each faction in the Balkans
3 Where would an adventurer land a small army? We will need time to establish a base to build strength and ensure security from a fast moving enemy!
4 Where were the trading centres in the campaign area? are they analogous to todays citys?

As I have already stated, my posts will be slow in arriving as I am self employed and my business takes up a lot of my time.

Tongera · Oct 25, 2012

Colonel Troutstrangler said:
Thank you for the interest! There are some things I could use, for example:
1 An estimation of the forces available to each faction in the Balkans
2 an estimation of the borders for each faction in the Balkans
3 Where would an adventurer land a small army? We will need time to establish a base to build strength and ensure security from a fast moving enemy!
4 Where were the trading centres in the campaign area? are they analogous to todays citys?

As I have already stated, my posts will be slow in arriving as I am self employed and my business takes up a lot of my time.

I would advise Wikipedia actually for stuff such as troop numbers and the map borders, despite Wikipedia being unrealiable at times.

I would assume a adventurer would land a small army in a friendly port, which for the Greeks may be in the Pelopenesses or the port of Piraeus.

The only trading center that comes to mind in the Balkans is Salonika.

Hope that helps!