WI: Napoleon has no "Spanish ulcer"

In this TL, let us suppose that Murat's incompetent and heavy handed reign over Madrid never happens and he is replaced early on with a more light-touch type commander. The transition of power to Joseph Bonaparte goes smoothly and Napoleon is given a free hand in an allied Spain which is able to send a small contingent of troops to the Grande Armee. What are the strategic implications for this? If all else goes as OTL, can Napoleon use his superior position to recover from the Russian disaster?
 
In my opinion the amount of cavalry alone, that this scenario would free up, pretty much secures Napoleon's recovery post Russia. Napoleon with a stronger cavalry arm would be far deadlier and could probably best whatever coalition assembles against him in this ATL.
 
There's still Portugal to deal with in all of this and you're still going to have major unrest with a foreign King placed on the throne of Spain. If you still have the Spanish traditions attacked under the French rule, it would be messy, just not to the extent of OTL.
 
What would happen if aforeign power (pretending to be an allied, to add insult to injury)suddenly abolished american constitution a decided that things would work as they consider now? It would lack legitimacy and would be considered a direct agression to american sovereignity and legislative tradition. Well, that's exactly what happened in Spain, trhough the sovereignity was embodied by the figure of the crown and constitution was theset of different fundamental laws and traditions (not too different from common law). Thus, spanish juridical tradition had well shrined he idea that in absence of the monarch, the sovereignity returned to the the people, its actual owner (this is Luis Suárez in the 1500's, I'm not making this out) and thus the people took arms to defend it and formed Juntas to exert it (it was nor the first, nor the last time). Has Napoleon understood this, he probably would had let Joseph living happily in Naples and would have profited of Ferdinand VII's stupidity...but it was easier to think that spaniards were a bunch of obedient sheeple.

Without causing a war of national liberation in a wink of eyes in Spain, the situation for Portugal becomes complicated, thus the possibility of incorporating them to the Continental Blockade (the original goal of the iberian Campaign) increases, though not sure about the consequences of this for Britain.

As Hasdrubal points, it would also free more polish troops, mwith their excellent cavalry, wihich would have and effect in other scenarios. It also butterflies Bailén, and its psychological effects encouraging uprisings in Germany.
 
In this TL, let us suppose that Murat's incompetent and heavy handed reign over Madrid never happens and he is replaced early on with a more light-touch type commander. The transition of power to Joseph Bonaparte goes smoothly and Napoleon is given a free hand in an allied Spain which is able to send a small contingent of troops to the Grande Armee. What are the strategic implications for this? If all else goes as OTL, can Napoleon use his superior position to recover from the Russian disaster?

The basic problem is NOT Murat or any other French General and/or Governor, it is BONAPARTE himself.

It is his outright betrayal of an ally that caused the initial Spanish Revolt
(which was already in progress in several places before Dos de Mayo in Madrid)

Nor was Bonaparte ever satisfied with less than complete subjugation, as shown by his actions against later attempts by his brother to placate Spanish feelings.
(or for that matter his actions against another brother who attempted to lighten the burden on the province he was appointed to govern)

Bonaparte without the Spanish Ulcer is impossible as long as Bonaparte remains Bonaparte
 
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longsword14

Banned
Keep the Spanish crown (with Godoy) plotting but not dare to do make any moves outright in the year 1806. With Prussia stomped (a part of Europe still expected Napoleon to lose against Prussia) Spain would stop making noises; in the long term I expect things to arise but getting a lot of resources stuck in Spain could have been avoided.
 
Keep the Spanish crown (with Godoy) plotting but not dare to do make any moves outright in the year 1806. With Prussia stomped (a part of Europe still expected Napoleon to lose against Prussia) Spain would stop making noises; in the long term I expect things to arise but getting a lot of resources stuck in Spain could have been avoided.

Unfortunately you are mistaken about OTL.

In 1806 that is exactly what Bonaparte did...

after he had beaten Prussia flat and made (temporary) peace with the Tsar in 1807 at Tilsit,
he tried to enforce various economic measures against Britain.

To enforce these, Spain then helped him invade and occupy Portugal and in spring 1808 Bonaparte gave them his thanks...

an invasion and attempt to replace its government with French overlords.
 
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When, I think about a victorious Napoleon TL and a Napoleonic Empire surviving to the XX century, one of the first POD, I use is no Spain War and a Peninsular War limited to a join invasion of Portugal and maybe some British attemps to help a portuguese guerilla fought mostly against Spanish troops.

This what Napoleon wrote about Spain on the Saint Helena island.

"The Spanish War lost me. Every circumstances of my disasters are intertwined in this fatal knot. It open a school for the english soldiers."
 

longsword14

Banned
Unfortunately you are mistaken about OTL.

In 1806 that is exactly what Bonaparte did...

after he had beaten Prussia flat and made (temporary) peace with the Tsar in 1807 at Tilsit,
he tried to enforce various economic measures against Britain.

To enforce these, Spain then helped him invade and occupy Portugal and in spring 1808 Bonaparte gave them his thanks...

an invasion and attempt to replace its government with French overlords.
Eh, how?
I wrote that Napoleon's distrust goes all the way back to 1806, with the possibility of a Spanish action while he was in Germany. I wrote about removing military involvement in Iberia entirely, but it is not really possible with Napoleon insistent on using military means to enforce economic goals.
 
Eh, how?
I wrote that Napoleon's distrust goes all the way back to 1806, with the possibility of a Spanish action while he was in Germany. I wrote about removing military involvement in Iberia entirely, but it is not really possible with Napoleon insistent on using military means to enforce economic goals.

If Bonaparte distrusted the Spanish in 1806 why?

for example at Trafalgar in October 1805 Spanish ships were less than half of the Combined Fleet
but Spanish casualties were higher in ships.

Around the world In 1807 the Spanish were fighting hard to defend their Empire against British expeditions


If he suspected military action by Spanish forces at home how come

a) there was a Spanish force with his armies against the Tsar and later Sweden (Romana's division of around 12,000)

b) when Bonaparte sent 24,00 French troops under Junot to attack Portugal, they had the same number of Spanish troops at their side?
(leaving aside the long logistic trail on the camino Real)


AFAIK Bonaparte wanted control of Spain but he had no reason to suspect direct action.
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
 

longsword14

Banned
If Bonaparte distrusted the Spanish in 1806 why?

for example at Trafalgar in October 1805 Spanish ships were less than half of the Combined Fleet
but Spanish casualties were higher in ships.

Around the world In 1807 the Spanish were fighting hard to defend their Empire against British expeditions


If he suspected military action by Spanish forces at home how come

a) there was a Spanish force with his armies against the Tsar and later Sweden (Romana's division of around 12,000)

b) when Bonaparte sent 24,00 French troops under Junot to attack Portugal, they had the same number of Spanish troops at their side?
(leaving aside the long logistic trail across the camino Royale)


AFAIK Bonaparte wanted control of Spain but he had no reason to suspect directaction
The contribution only happened after the threat of the French turning their attention to them.Napoleon had an interest in keeping the Spanish involved, but he had grown suspicious of their support post 1806 (see Oman), he expected an easy resolution by having support of the Francophile classes, imposing some reforms and being rid of another problem.
Adding Portugal to his list enticed the Spanish and turned off another tap into the continent.
Mass insurrection was not on anybody's list.

Spain defended its empire because that is what it would do.
 
Couldn't he just not implement the Continental System? I get that he wanted to strike at Britain, but as it happened, it hurt France's economy way more than Britain's. He had a massive, seasoned field army that could meet any coalition the British bribed into being as long as it didn't get devoured by Spanish insurgency or the Russian steppes; to me, it seems like he could have just sat on Continental Europe until he became the new status quo.
 
Couldn't he just not implement the Continental System? I get that he wanted to strike at Britain, but as it happened, it hurt France's economy way more than Britain's. He had a massive, seasoned field army that could meet any coalition the British bribed into being as long as it didn't get devoured by Spanish insurgency or the Russian steppes; to me, it seems like he could have just sat on Continental Europe until he became the new status quo.

That would indeed have been a better course
whether it might have worked given how hard all of Europe - including, perhaps especially the French worked to subvert the Berlin Decrees, who knows.

However as an astute observer of the times said "A conqueror, like a cannon ball, must go on. If he rebounds, his career is over."

Bonaparte had many strengths - patience was not one of them.
 
Spain was on the verge of attacking France and had started mobilization (1805?) when Prussia was stomped with such astonishing speed, that they did a sudden about face. they were quite unwilling allies of France and had to be forced into assisting in Portugal. Nap knew he had to do something, he just blundered in what he did.
 
If Bonaparte distrusted the Spanish in 1806 why?

Because Charles defended that Naples belonged to the Bourbon and in exchange Napoleon said "If Charles IV will not acknowledge my brother as king of the Two Sicilies his successor shall".

Then in 1806 Godoy had the brilliant notion of issuing a proclamation in which he announced France was a enemy with whom he was contemplating a war and summoned the nation to arms and decreed the levy of 60000 men. The proclamation was on the 5th of October, Jena occurred on the 14th. Godoy tried to go back as fast as possible going as far as saying it was a forgery but Napoleon still read the original.

From that moment on Boney begun to look at the Spanish and thought how to ensure their loyalty and how to teach them a lesson on loyalty.

Around the world In 1807 the Spanish were fighting hard to defend their Empire against British expeditions

And those expeditions only worked in putting the European powers against GB. In the eyes of Prussia, Russia and Austria, the brits never had troops to send to europe but when it came down to invade colonies they had thousands.

Plus France didn't cared about the war on the colonies.

If he suspected military action by Spanish forces at home how come

a) there was a Spanish force with his armies against the Tsar and later Sweden (Romana's division of around 12,000)

b) when Bonaparte sent 24,00 French troops under Junot to attack Portugal, they had the same number of Spanish troops at their side?
(leaving aside the long logistic trail across the camino Royale)


AFAIK Bonaparte wanted control of Spain but he had no reason to suspect directaction

a) Because France was the hegemon of Europe and Godoy had to play the part of a good ally. Either he sent the soldiers of he would receive soldiers.

b) He had no problem in using others, beater a dead German/Polish/Italian/Spanish/etc... than a dead Frenchman. Also that invasion was so successful that it only worked because of the 75000 paper strong portuguese army only 20000 existed -.- and of those maybe half (and I'm being generous here, that's how bad the corruption was on the Portuguese Army) knew which side of the musket one had to use to fire -.-. The Spanish were only there to say "Hey we are here" and only invaded in December when Junot had already been in Lisbon since the 30th of November.
 
Keep the Spanish crown (with Godoy) plotting but not dare to do make any moves outright in the year 1806. With Prussia stomped (a part of Europe still expected Napoleon to lose against Prussia) Spain would stop making noises; in the long term I expect things to arise but getting a lot of resources stuck in Spain could have been avoided.

If Napoleon got rid of Godoy, and Charles IV for that matter, the Spanish would be waving French flags with the same enthusiasm as the Italians and the Croats.

He had a perfect card in Ferdinand VII and he refused to play it.
 
Because Charles defended that Naples belonged to the Bourbon and in exchange Napoleon said "If Charles IV will not acknowledge my brother as king of the Two Sicilies his successor shall".

Then in 1806 Godoy had the brilliant notion of issuing a proclamation in which he announced France was a enemy with whom he was contemplating a war and summoned the nation to arms and decreed the levy of 60000 men. .

So basically Bonaparte "suspects" Spain because after he annexes Territory from their family they protest
and after he threatens them with an invasion they begin to rearm.

Perhaps this is the case that inspired the famous aphorism "cette animal est tres mechant, quand on l'attaque il se defende"
 
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So basically Bonaparte "suspects" Spain because after he annexes Territory from their family they protest
and after he threatens them with an invasion they begin to rearm.

Perhaps this is the case that inspired the famous aphorism "cette animal est tres mechant, quand on l'attaque il se defende"

The man saw Spain as a vassal and as such Spain had no business arguing with him.

Plus Godoy was stupid in his declaration because he did it before he ended negotiations with GB and Russia and he didn't had the balls to keep to it. Napoleon could forgive Naples but the fact that Godoy was ready to backstab him in 1806 just ensured him that Spain was too unstable a ally to be kept under the rule of Charles and Godoy.
 
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