WI: NACA Modified P-38

No, it doesn't seem that long. And every time I see the page count, it startles me. (Really?:eek:)
I feel the same. It has been an incredible amount of support and interest in this TL which has made that possible. To be honest, when I stared it I never expected it to get this big but I am sure glad it has. It has inspired me and reignited my life-long goal of flying to the point where I am actively studying for my Pilot Cert and pursuing formal flight instruction. Only 20 years later than intended.

Incidently, this Saturday I am heading down to visit our "local" P-38 at Fagen Fighters in Granite Falls, MN. They will be busy putting on an air show but I hope to get some good photos and maybe talk to the owners and volunteers and see if I can set up a more intimate examination of her sometime.
 
I feel the same. It has been an incredible amount of support and interest in this TL which has made that possible. To be honest, when I stared it I never expected it to get this big but I am sure glad it has. It has inspired me and reignited my life-long goal of flying to the point where I am actively studying for my Pilot Cert and pursuing formal flight instruction. Only 20 years later than intended.

Incidently, this Saturday I am heading down to visit our "local" P-38 at Fagen Fighters in Granite Falls, MN. They will be busy putting on an air show but I hope to get some good photos and maybe talk to the owners and volunteers and see if I can set up a more intimate examination of her sometime.


Good for you EverKing. Better a little late than a little never. If your interest runs that way consider aerobatic training as well. Though I realize everything is so damn expensive nowadays and Uncle Sam is not picking up the tab for your training.

Be careful about getting too intimate with that P-38 or you'll end up having to marry her. :)
 
I feel the same. It has been an incredible amount of support and interest in this TL which has made that possible. To be honest, when I stared it I never expected it to get this big but I am sure glad it has. It has inspired me and reignited my life-long goal of flying to the point where I am actively studying for my Pilot Cert and pursuing formal flight instruction. Only 20 years later than intended.
Outstanding.:cool: Every new pilot is one more good thing.:cool:
Incidently, this Saturday I am heading down to visit our "local" P-38 at Fagen Fighters in Granite Falls, MN. They will be busy putting on an air show but I hope to get some good photos and maybe talk to the owners and volunteers and see if I can set up a more intimate examination of her sometime.
I'd echo Draconis about being careful, but worry more about divorce: obsessions have a way of causing trouble...:eek:
 
Be careful about getting too intimate with that P-38 or you'll end up having to marry her.
I'd echo Draconis about being careful, but worry more about divorce: obsessions have a way of causing trouble...:eek:
Haha! Yes, indeed, there is always that. In all honesty, I just a have a few detail questions which I think can only be adequately solved by a closer look in person.

I am still hoping to get the next chapter up before Midnight CDT (GMT -5:00) today but it is looking like it may be tight. Ran into a few bugs that have kept me from it and I am so far not very happy with what I've written--I may end up shelving this chapter and holding off on a PTO visit until autumn '44. I am starting to think, in honor of the TL's anniversary, I may change gears and write a bit of an "interlude" type chapter to catch us up on all the goings-on on the Home Front and get a broader sense of how the War has been progressing. If I do that, it may not be up until Sunday as I'll be starting from scratch (although I already have a few "scenes" in mind for it).

EDIT: It will be Sunday. I am really not happy with the Lindy chapter with the 475th so I am going to scrap it. Instead I will be going with a nice calm interlude chapter to catch up with some of the folks from previous chapters and to honor our anniversary (+2) with touch of calm. Have no fear, lovers of the PTO, we will pay the 475th a visit in Autumn '44 and some fun with them!

In the meantime, here is a little gem I found of Tommy McGuire's Tactics guide for new pilots arriving to the SWPA (with an introduction by MacDonald, of course).

Whether I get a chapter up tonight or not until Sunday, there will be a post on Sunday to share some pictures from tomorrow's Air Show (although not directly TL related, I will at the very least drop a couple pictures of the P-38 to keep it on topic-ish).
 
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An older comment, but I found some new information. Remember when I had T/5 Henry help replace the leading edge sub-assembly of a damaged '38 in Italy while waiting for the group to return from Romania? Well, I noted in the narrative that...
It connected to the main spar by a total of 58 steel bolts along its span, four at each hydro-pressed 24ST chord-wise rib—two upper screws and two lower—and six screws—three upper, three lower—at the final outer-wing cap where the tip connects. The outer Alclad skin of the leading edge overlaps the main the spar and is secured down by hundreds of small screws spaced about one inch apart and recessed to produce a smooth surface.
@phx1138 noted...
That is crazy design engineering. Can you imagine how look it took to fasten those on the line?

Well, I recently found pdf scans of the "Erection and Maintenance Instructions for Army Model P-38L-1 Airplane" which has the following gem regarding attaching the leading edge to the rest of outer wing assembly:
OW-LE-small.png
Sorry for the small size, the full res version was too big to post. The gist of it is that my count of "58 bolts" and "hundreds of small screws" for the skin was close...but not entirely accurate. The corrected count is 8 screws for inside attachment points near the main spar, 70 screws on the chord-wise ribs (2 top/2 bottom for the first 12, 16 total on the next which includes the end cap of the internal fuel cell, and 3 top/3 bottom on the final cap where the tip will connect), 1 engine mount bolt with 2 washers and 3 nuts, and 299 screws for the surface sheeting. :eek::eek:
 
299 screws for the surface sheeting. :eek::eek:
The engineers responsible for that should have been shot as saboteurs.:eek::eek::eek: Had this been a Sov design, they would've been. Sheesh.:eek:

It's another case of real life being too insane to make up.:eek:;)

(On the matter of obsession, this is probably closer to what I actually had in mind, but I didn't think of it in time.:oops:)
 
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Interlude chapter will be up tomorrow.

Here is a quick photo (cropped video still, actually) from the end of the airshow this past weekend.
MissingMan-sm.png


The turnout was incredible. From memory here's what we say fly:
  • PT-22
  • PT-26
  • Erco Ercoupe
  • Boeing Stearman (including a Wing Walking demonstration)
  • 2 x BT-13
  • At least 6 x AT-6 & 1 x SNJ
  • FM-2 Wildcat (if you have never heard one of these tearing by full throttle at ground level you are missing out)
  • TBM Avenger
  • 2 x F4U-4 Corsair
  • Beechcraft 18
  • B-25J Mitchell ("Paper Doll")
  • P-40E Warhawk ("Desert Shark")
  • P-40K Warhawk ("Aleutian Tiger")
  • 5(!) x P-51D ("Sweet Revenge", "Twilight Tear", "Gunfighter," "Petie 2nd", & "Old Crow")
  • P-38L ("Scat III")
Guests of honor were too many to call out individually but the highlight was certainly Christina Olds (daughter of Brig.Gen. Robin Olds) and none other than Col. C.E. "Bud" Anderson himself. Oh! What stories they all told!

We arrived early (an hour before they advertised the gates would open) to get good parking and after having to shelter under a small awning during a brief cloud bust we were let in early. This allowed us, and the first few hundred people there, to get close to the birds while still in the hangars and I was able to get a couple close shots of the P-38 as well as some of their engine displays and a shot-up vertical stabilizer from a Bf-110 which was downed in the BoB.
Bf-110-sm.png


Then we grabbed our chairs and claimed our spot down near the far end (beginning) of the flight-line. This turned out to be the perfect location as most of the maneuvers ended up taking place directly in front us (left of the grand stand). Even better, after they towed the A/C out and stacked them up in reverse order for the planned takeoff times, this was my view directly in front:
view_sm.png


The best picture I got was a complete accident. We were eating our lunch, trying to stay out of the wind after the morning rain front passed by and they rolled "Sweet Revenge" out. I snapped a quick picture and couldn't believe what I got--with my phone, no less:
SweetRevenge_sm.png


I couldn't guess at the number of people but one gate attendant said they were expecting up to 20,000 visitors. Bear in mind, all of this was in a town with a population of less than 3,000 people.

Overall, I would say it was a successful day.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
Getting into an airshow early is the best! I've got some nice dawn shots from primo spots on the crowd line at a couple of shows.
 
Interlude chapter will be up tomorrow.

Here is a quick photo (cropped video still, actually) from the end of the airshow this past weekend.
View attachment 392670

The turnout was incredible. From memory here's what we say fly:
  • PT-22
  • PT-26
  • Erco Ercoupe
  • Boeing Stearman (including a Wing Walking demonstration)
  • 2 x BT-13
  • At least 6 x AT-6 & 1 x SNJ
  • FM-2 Wildcat (if you have never heard one of these tearing by full throttle at ground level you are missing out)
  • TBM Avenger
  • 2 x F4U-4 Corsair
  • Beechcraft 18
  • B-25J Mitchell ("Paper Doll")
  • P-40E Warhawk ("Desert Shark")
  • P-40K Warhawk ("Aleutian Tiger")
  • 5(!) x P-51D ("Sweet Revenge", "Twilight Tear", "Gunfighter," "Petie 2nd", & "Old Crow")
  • P-38L ("Scat III")
Guests of honor were too many to call out individually but the highlight was certainly Christina Olds (daughter of Brig.Gen. Robin Olds) and none other than Col. C.E. "Bud" Anderson himself. Oh! What stories they all told!

We arrived early (an hour before they advertised the gates would open) to get good parking and after having to shelter under a small awning during a brief cloud bust we were let in early. This allowed us, and the first few hundred people there, to get close to the birds while still in the hangars and I was able to get a couple close shots of the P-38 as well as some of their engine displays and a shot-up vertical stabilizer from a Bf-110 which was downed in the BoB.
View attachment 392675

Then we grabbed our chairs and claimed our spot down near the far end (beginning) of the flight-line. This turned out to be the perfect location as most of the maneuvers ended up taking place directly in front us (left of the grand stand). Even better, after they towed the A/C out and stacked them up in reverse order for the planned takeoff times, this was my view directly in front:
View attachment 392679

The best picture I got was a complete accident. We were eating our lunch, trying to stay out of the wind after the morning rain front passed by and they rolled "Sweet Revenge" out. I snapped a quick picture and couldn't believe what I got--with my phone, no less:
View attachment 392681

I couldn't guess at the number of people but one gate attendant said they were expecting up to 20,000 visitors. Bear in mind, all of this was in a town with a population of less than 3,000 people.

Overall, I would say it was a successful day.
From our reporter on the scene...;) You've missed your calling.:)

And that shot of the P-51 is a beaut.:cool: (Not that the others are shabby, either, mind.;))
 
@EverKing I went back to the beginning of your wonderful story to remind myself of what the POD was about and how this all got started. That General Hap Arnold ordered the wind tunnel testing of a YP-38 by the NACA people in June 1941.

One thing not mentioned in the first chapter was why. Rather than as in OTL waiting for Lockheed to solve the compressibility problem and than running out of patience with the lack of progress by Dec. 1941 what prompted General Arnold to order the wind tunnel testing in June 1941? It was a good idea but what might have happened to push him to make a different decision in TTL?
 
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@EverKing I went back to the beginning of your wonderful story to remind myself of what the POD was about and how this all got started. That General Hap Arnold ordered the wind tunnel testing of a YP-38 by the NACA people in June 1941.

One thing not mentioned in the first chapter was why. Rather than as in OTL waiting for Lockheed to solve the compressibility problem and than running out of patience with the lack of progress by Dec. 1941 what prompted General Arnold to order the wind tunnel testing in June 1941? It was a good idea but what might have happened to push him to make a different decision in TTL?
That's a good question and I realize now, going back and reading it, I never really explicitly stated what prompted it. The closest mention I got in the Narrative was...
After their Lieutenant Putnam had been killed in the crash of number 699 in June...
But I never went into more detail. Basically, as IOTL, Putnam's crash in YP-38 #39-699 on 23 June 1941, which prompted the concern regarding "tail flutter" and the similar problems. The only real change was just that Arnold was maybe in a slightly different mood or frame of mind and decided to listen to Lockheed's request for immediate full scale testing rather than waiting. I do not have any particular reason for this POD--maybe he had eggs for breakfast instead of pancakes? (In other words, it was just a mood..a split decision that led him to agree to Lockheed's request in June and order the testing at NACA ASAP or perhaps a simple desire for better answers and a more detailed investigation into the causes that led to the loss of 2Lt. Guy Putnam). I know that may not be the answer you were hoping for but it is the only one I have to offer.
 
That's a good question and I realize now, going back and reading it, I never really explicitly stated what prompted it.
Honestly, I never noticed.:oops:

Knowing Marshall's an old soldier, tho, I have to think (OTL & TTL) it came down to, will fixing it delay the a/c more than not? He doesn't need perfect, he needs it tomorrow. So, I picture him asking, "Will this interrupt production? Will it improve the a/c enough to warrant the time & effort?" And, TTL, he gets a yes. As to why he asks TTL? I imagine he thought about it OTL; TTL, he does the other thing & asks. Exactly why could hinge on something as small as which tie the Lockheed rep chose.:eek:;) (In the multiverse, all things happen...;))
 
particular reason for this POD--maybe he had eggs for breakfast instead of pancakes? (In other words, it was just a mood..a split decision that led him to agree to Lockheed's request in June and order the testing at NACA ASAP or perhaps a simple desire for better answers and a more detailed investigation into the causes that led to the loss of 2Lt. Guy Putnam). I know that may not be the answer you were hoping for but it is the only one I have to offer.

Fair enough EverKing. In history no doubt many important decisions were based on what seems to be the whims or moods of the decision makers. Influenced by the most tenuous or unknowable reasons. So maybe the POD was triggered by a case of indigestion in an aging General. It makes as much sense as many other things in OTL. Thanks for your reply and I'm eagerly awaiting the next chapter in your P-38 saga.
 

Here is a nice Youtube video of 2 P-38s flying together. This is a very good demonstration of the distinctive sound of the Allison engined Lightnings.
 
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Sorry, once more, for the lack of updates. I have a bit of writer's block and am having trouble getting past it. Right now we have the P-38 just about perfected and there isn't much drama to show. I have a few other flights/fights planned for 1944 before we move on to final push in Europe and can then switch our focus to finish off PTO in '45 (including some 9th AF ground-attack and later Nightfighting in '45) but advancing the story to get to those points is proving problematic for me. I also have a list of the final improvements for the Block-5 J/K Lightnings but they won't come into effect until late '44/early '45 (due to technology delays). Finally, I have the P-81 development over the next year (TL), but I don't expect the first flight until sometime in '45 and full Acceptance Tests a bit later (roughly following the development timeline of the OTL XP-81 and P-82).

The "Interlude" chapter I had started stalled out as I really wanted to get a "big picture" of the war and how the earlier introduction of long-range escort in Europe has changed the pace of the war but I struggled to get the details straight. It was going to include three scenes: Hilgert back home with his lovely bride (and mother of his young daughter, born while he was away) watching a newsreel describing the current progress of the fight; Bong and Marge for a "joy ride" before he heads back; and Mrs. LeVier (Tony's mom) receiving bouquets of flowers from Operational P-38 Groups. I think the problem is that the story has become too focused on individual characters rather than the airplane and I am trying too hard to get a full picture of the war instead of focusing just on the Airplane and its changes.

So, I guess the big question is: Where do we go from here to keep the story moving toward its conclusion?

What do you all want to see next? I just need a little direction to get back on track, I think.
 
@EverKing I would suggest you continue in smaller chapters instead of trying to fit too many events and themes into any single chapter. That might make the story more manageable. I don't mean small segments ala fester but just cover one theme or event only per update.

For example I would love to see that final NACA P-38J/K Block 5 list of refinements. Perhaps you could post that as a resumption of your updates and then take things from there. All at your own pace of course. You have mentioned many interesting ideas for new chapters. And there is no hurry.
 
Sorry, once more, for the lack of updates. I have a bit of writer's block and am having trouble getting past it.
:eek: Sorry to hear it.
What do you all want to see next? I just need a little direction to get back on track, I think.
The plan as laid out sounds good, but as a way to break the block, can I suggest you flip the POV, & tell one from the Japanese or German side? Fresh perspective might do you good.:) And if you don't actually post it, just doing the reading, & some writing, on it can't hurt. (I find going back & editing helps, but that involves retcons, here...:eek:)
I am trying too hard to get a full picture of the war instead of focusing just on the Airplane and its changes.
I'm not sure a broader look is a bad thing. Could I suggest a War Bond drive? It gives you the opportunity to look at how the country sees the P-38, & how the a/c is influencing the war.

Whatever you decide to do, as Draconis says, there's no hurry. It's been worth the wait so far. I see no reason it won't be.:)
 
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Sorry, once more, for the lack of updates. I have a bit of writer's block and am having trouble getting past it. Right now we have the P-38 just about perfected and there isn't much drama to show. I have a few other flights/fights planned for 1944 before we move on to final push in Europe and can then switch our focus to finish off PTO in '45 (including some 9th AF ground-attack and later Nightfighting in '45) but advancing the story to get to those points is proving problematic for me. I also have a list of the final improvements for the Block-5 J/K Lightnings but they won't come into effect until late '44/early '45 (due to technology delays). Finally, I have the P-81 development over the next year (TL), but I don't expect the first flight until sometime in '45 and full Acceptance Tests a bit later (roughly following the development timeline of the OTL XP-81 and P-82).

The "Interlude" chapter I had started stalled out as I really wanted to get a "big picture" of the war and how the earlier introduction of long-range escort in Europe has changed the pace of the war but I struggled to get the details straight. It was going to include three scenes: Hilgert back home with his lovely bride (and mother of his young daughter, born while he was away) watching a newsreel describing the current progress of the fight; Bong and Marge for a "joy ride" before he heads back; and Mrs. LeVier (Tony's mom) receiving bouquets of flowers from Operational P-38 Groups. I think the problem is that the story has become too focused on individual characters rather than the airplane and I am trying too hard to get a full picture of the war instead of focusing just on the Airplane and its changes.

So, I guess the big question is: Where do we go from here to keep the story moving toward its conclusion?

What do you all want to see next? I just need a little direction to get back on track, I think.

Smaller vignettes of daily life in squadrons...pilots routine... our ground crew friends moving bases, visiting Roman ruins in N. Africs, and later Rome, and Pisa. I have the pics so it's s real..
 
flip the POV, & tell one from the Japanese or German side?
I think this is the way I will go. I have an idea for it but need a little input. See below...
Could I suggest a War Bond drive?
This was going to be mentioned in the Newsreel and would be covered again as part of Bong's POV during the (now abandoned) Interlude chapter. I may come back and visit the idea of the public perception of the P-38 later but for now I think it is too distracting.
Smaller vignettes of daily life in squadrons...pilots routine... our ground crew friends moving bases
A good idea and I think it would be very interesting but my problem right now is getting the story moving forward again and I don't see this helping much for that.

Back to the first point--switching POV. This gave me an idea to show the LW response to the pummeling they have received since the P-38 arrived in Western Europe (followed by the P-51). My thinking is that the threat of the Lightnings would change the LW development priorities a bit to rush a more suitable competitor into the air by summer '44. This will be exacerbated by the early failures of the Sturmböcke which will increase priority for a high-performance, high-altitude, interceptor capable of engaging the bombers and still being able to either escape from or fight on even terms with the expected Allied fighters (remember, the Germans would have no idea the ATL J/K-Series are on the way). Ruling out the 262 (remember they are delayed TTL due to the 5/7/44 raid on Lechfeld), I see five potential solutions (in no particular order):
  • FW-190C (based on the V18 variant with a Turbocharged DB.603)
  • FW-190D (increased priority could maybe get this operational before OTL Sept. '44)
  • Bf.109H (more resources may allow them to solve the wing-flutter issues)
  • Bf.109Z (Continued development instead of abandoned after OTL sole prototype was damaged in '43)
  • Ta.154 (stripped of Radar and second seat, simplified and lightened to act as a day-time interceptor instead of a two-seat Night Fighter)
Of those, I think the last two (Zwilling and Moskito) would be seen as the most likely solutions. The 190C may be a possibility but afaik Germany never successfully fielded a Turbocharged A/C during the war. The 190D still has the problem of poor high-altitude performance compared to Allied types. Finally, the structural issues with the 109H may be all-but insurmountable without significant performance penalties.

Does anyone in the great collective here see any glaring problems with any of these solutions or note any A/C worthy of consideration absent from the list?
 
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