WI Mussolini dislike Hitler ?

So would South Tyrol be Hitler's next target after the Sudentland? That begs the question, if Hitler attacked Italy, would Britain and France declare war on Germany? If so, would we see a "phony war" or actual military assistance to Italy?
 
Italy would fare well against the Germans. Unlike France, the only way to get to Italy was through the mountains, which was what the Italian militaries were experienced with. The Blitzkrieg relied on Panzers greatly, and the Alps aren't tank friendly (If Hitler invaded Italy, it'll be like Hannibal crossing the Alps)
 
Any idea if there's such a timeline on these boards? I'd love to see a timeline where Facist Italy drifts away from Germany early on, and then plays neutral in the war until its seen that the Allies are likely to win. And then, of course, the after years would be quite interesting.

to be honest i play with Idea of a Timeline, but wat look more on a Italy wank.:rolleyes:

I think think he'd formally put the demand to Italy unless he was flat out ready for a war. The Werhmacht would get a bloody nose to say the least trying to cross the Alps, to say nothing of having another front from the get go.

OTL The Italy army was Joke
during Wehrmacht invasion of France, Mussolini gave orde to march in provence June 1940
the italian army went to France on foot with donkey, do lack of equitment
while
the Gran Sasso raid by a special Fallschirmjäger unit under commando Otto Skorzeny.
show the efficiency of German Warmachine
(OTL the rescue of Mussolini from his prision on 12 September 1943)

so wat if on Hitler order the Wehrmacht Invade north east Italy, "Liberate" South Tyrol and conquer Venice in April 1941 ?
that include drop of paratrooper on crucial point on mountain road, Railway and there Tunnels
while the Wehrmacht move on them and Luftwaffe attack crucial point in Italy defence and military base.
(wat is left over after Battle of Britain )
 
Judging by the OTL actions after the fall of France, the German paratroopers are more likely to be cut up - even by inept opposition - than devastating.
 
So would South Tyrol be Hitler's next target after the Sudentland? That begs the question, if Hitler attacked Italy, would Britain and France declare war on Germany? If so, would we see a "phony war" or actual military assistance to Italy?

yes
South Tyrol would be next on list

but there still the Munich Conference in September 1938
were Hitler have to deal about the Sudentland and South Tyrol
OTL Mussolini helping Nazi Germany seize control of the Sudetenland.
but Mussolini refuse any agreement so long Hitler renounced all claim on South Tyrol
Hitler stubborn in "I want it All NOW !" tenor and take wat he want by force
so World War Two begins October 1938 with Invasion of Czechoslokakia
OTL Hitler had planed this, but Chamberlain hindered that...

wat give a very interesting turn
in 1938 the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were far from ready like there force in 1940
especially in quality, training and skills of officers and non-commissioned officers.
wat give Italian Army/Airforce a real chance to beat the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe
in case of a Invasion of South Tyrol

would be insane if Mussolini demand as rectification for Invasion
the "Bundesländer" North Tyrol, Vorarlberg, Salzburg and Bavaria are become Italy territory?
 
Italy would fare well against the Germans. Unlike France, the only way to get to Italy was through the mountains, which was what the Italian militaries were experienced with.

Yeah, and also the elite Alpini corps would fight in their own environment and not be sent to die in the steppes of the Ukraine like in OTL.
 
The Italian army had lots of problems but the Alps are still a huge obstacle to any invader. Launching a large scale invasion through them would be a logistical nightmare.

Yeah, everyone's making an argument about the skill of the Wehrmacht when historically the equally-skilled if not even stronger Allied forces historically bogged down in Italy trying to make headway against its defenses.
 
Losing Mussolini as an ally after 1937 ans before 1940 is probably one of the best things that can happen for Hitler's plans, and might have the added bonus of allowing the Germans to try and cultivate Arab support in Western Asia and North Africa.
 
Losing Mussolini as an ally after 1937 ans before 1940 is probably one of the best things that can happen for Hitler's plans, and might have the added bonus of allowing the Germans to try and cultivate Arab support in Western Asia and North Africa.

But what about the bogged-down Allied invasion of Italy that occured because of Mussolini's alliance with Hitler?
 
Losing Mussolini as an ally after 1937 ans before 1940 is probably one of the best things that can happen for Hitler's plans, and might have the added bonus of allowing the Germans to try and cultivate Arab support in Western Asia and North Africa.

But what about the bogged-down Allied invasion of Italy that occured because of Mussolini's alliance with Hitler?

Mussolini would end up as a Allied in this TL
because France and Britan gona reasoning "the Enermy of my Enermy is my Friend"
it work ( temporally ) with Stalin, so why not with Mussolini ?

in that case there no German Afrikafeldzug by Rommel
because there no Italian invasion against Egypt
but the Allied can use Italy to start invasion of South France (if Wehrmacht occupy France in 1938/39 War)

i wounder if Mussolini would gain some profit out this war
like Yugoslavia, Albania and Greece under Italian control
or expansion Libya colony by french Chad
or both ?
 
But what about the bogged-down Allied invasion of Italy that occured because of Mussolini's alliance with Hitler?

The allies lacked the logistics for a real landing on the continent prior to Italy in our timeline, and here Italy gains the most from nonbelligerence simila to Franco, so the Allies are stuck in the West until after the East has gone south for the USSR, or the Geran forces that would have otherwise perished in North Africa are occupying Italy following a war with Germany before 1940 that left the Germans overall better prepared for a longer war, or, at the very least, is succeedinging in keeping the allies from enticing Italy to join the war in any effective capacity.
 
Mussolini wasn't really fond of Hitler in the beginning, so that is not a problem. The real trouble is to keep this dislike.

The main obstacles are two: Ethiopia and Spain.

The invasion of Abyssinia not only broke the so called Stresa front, but also caused the economic sancionts which in turn made Italy to shift her positions toward Germany.
The intervention into the spanish civil war deepened the division between Italy and the Allies (it was at this time that Mussolini ordered the navy to draw battle plans against the royal navy).

In order to keep Mussolini far from Hitler, you have somehow to circumvent these obstacles, keepingin mind that Mussolini wanted to demonstrate to the whole world how powerful Italy had become under fascism.

As for the South Tyrole, is not really an issue: if Mussolini and Hitler are enemies, I strongly doubt that the former would accept the anshluss. A war in 1937 would be quite a bloody and messy affair for both and I really don't know if Hitler would have risked his growing but still little and weak army so early. Something that changed quickly, but in 1937 Italy was still stronger than Germany. Besides I think that the allies, while avoiding direct involvment, could be tempted to give Italy some help to "teach the bloody huns a lesson or two".

Without Austria, Hitler would have troubles to annex Sudetenland, not to mention the whole Czech republic...

So with a Mussolini enemy of Hitler, you could either have an earlier war or no war at all.
 
I'm actually working on that right now. Likely to come by the end of the week.

Then I'll be your first subscriber :).

Just one question though: can you see Mussolini's postwar Italy being kind of a more successful version of Franco's Spain or Salazar's Estado Novo? He'd probably have decent relations with both men...

Hmm... Spain or Portugal in WWII...

*diverges timeline forever*
 
Any idea if there's such a timeline on these boards? I'd love to see a timeline where Facist Italy drifts away from Germany early on, and then plays neutral in the war until its seen that the Allies are likely to win. And then, of course, the after years would be quite interesting.

I kind of did it in "A Greater Britain"- although in that, the Italians are on the Allied side. Doesn't go wonderfully well for Germany, although whether a better world results is left in the eye of the beholder, depends on how much you like Charles Manson hippy-nazis...
 
Mussolini wasn't really fond of Hitler in the beginning, so that is not a problem. The real trouble is to keep this dislike.

The main obstacles are two: Ethiopia and Spain.

The invasion of Abyssinia not only broke the so called Stresa front, but also caused the economic sancionts which in turn made Italy to shift her positions toward Germany.
The intervention into the spanish civil war deepened the division between Italy and the Allies (it was at this time that Mussolini ordered the navy to draw battle plans against the royal navy).

In order to keep Mussolini far from Hitler, you have somehow to circumvent these obstacles, keepingin mind that Mussolini wanted to demonstrate to the whole world how powerful Italy had become under fascism.

As for the South Tyrole, is not really an issue: if Mussolini and Hitler are enemies, I strongly doubt that the former would accept the anshluss. A war in 1937 would be quite a bloody and messy affair for both and I really don't know if Hitler would have risked his growing but still little and weak army so early. Something that changed quickly, but in 1937 Italy was still stronger than Germany. Besides I think that the allies, while avoiding direct involvment, could be tempted to give Italy some help to "teach the bloody huns a lesson or two".

Without Austria, Hitler would have troubles to annex Sudetenland, not to mention the whole Czech republic...

So with a Mussolini enemy of Hitler, you could either have an earlier war or no war at all.

in fact the first meeting Mussolini and Hitler in Venice 1934 is perfect for that
Hitler arrive with a J-52 From Berlin at Venice in wrinkled civilian clothes and soak with sweat
Mussolini and rest of Welcome Committee in full Military Gala Uniform and the Italian PRESS
800px-HitlerMussolini1934Venice.jpg

Hitler was very embarrassing
after that He was taken direct to conference "room" a giant hall of a Venice palazo
here Hitler feel even more annoying in the extreme
note: Hitler had later let build by Speer a ever BIGGER hall as his office at Reichskanzlei in Berlin
here in Palazo Mussolini reamed about "Anschluss" Austria and the Death of Dollfuss
the dialog had to be Translated
Hitler look like cornered animal and ask about pause
during that pause Hitler demand that talks are made outside in Palazo garden
here he revived and take the advantage of situation wat let
to Mussolini estimation error "This man is not so bad after all"

so wat if Hitler din't get his way and stay cornered inside the hall
make fatal mistake to make agressive approach: "South Tyrole must back in the Reich or..."
and Mussolini squalls "OR WAT ?"
followed by Italian profanity wat are translated into German
followed by german profanity yell by Hitler wat are translated into italian
Mussolini lambasts Hitler (or is that last sentence a littel bit to ABS ?)
 
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