WI: Mulberry style harbor in north africa

You are part right, although if they take it further east there should be a reason. Could simply be development though. Aint no cities now, but there Will be.

The other side of it is that whatever excuse could be the POD itself.

Not really...yes it would obviously be for the purpose of war but that war could easily be defensive and thus quite within Italy's sovereign rights. It might provoke some observation and maybe a little more attention to fortifying the Egyptian frontier but then again maybe not.
 
Given the relative scarcity of motor vehicles in the 20s I doubt it would raise eyebrows if the railway went from Tripoli to Tobruk or even further east. There's nothing at Mesa Matruh and the British built a railway there before WW2. Besides, had Britain identified Italy as an enemy in the late 20s, was that not until almost a decade later in 1935?
 
Not really...yes it would obviously be for the purpose of war but that war could easily be defensive and thus quite within Italy's sovereign rights. It might provoke some observation and maybe a little more attention to fortifying the Egyptian frontier but then again maybe not.

Given the relative scarcity of motor vehicles in the 20s I doubt it would raise eyebrows if the railway went from Tripoli to Tobruk or even further east. There's nothing at Mesa Matruh and the British built a railway there before WW2. Besides, had Britain identified Italy as an enemy in the late 20s, was that not until almost a decade later in 1935?

Ingeresting eh? Anything that makes Italy anticipate or just realistically consider the possibility of a major war would probably bring about this development then?

Any thoughts?
 
Ingeresting eh? Anything that makes Italy anticipate or just realistically consider the possibility of a major war would probably bring about this development then?

Any thoughts?

The motivations of Benny the Moose in supporting Nazi Germany are obscure at times, because the man was very good at disguising what was driving his policies. Did he think that the German alliance might stop war from breaking out? Or was he thinking that the alliance might help him to grab more territories or land? It's hard to work out. What we do know is that although he signed the Pact of Steel he very nearly dropped it in September 1939 when he realised that war was imminent. He said that he would prefer a war in 1943 and added a shopping list of millions of tonnes of raw materials and supplies that Italy needed to be ready for war. When he did join the war it was in the mistaken impression that the war would be over in a few weeks. The overall judgement of Benny the Moose therefore has to be classified as 'flaky' at best.
 
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I've found a brilliant chart that states the numbers from each source. Unfortunately I just tried to upload a picture of it and it's too damn big. Let me try and find some numbers from another source.

Thanks, what is the title?

View attachment 269458

Ok, here's an image that might just work.

Interesting how there is a steep drop in intake starting in late August. This was about the same period of the Cherbourg surge, I wonder if the Brits received a substantial portion of that early September surge?

Thanks again.
 
The reality is the reconstruction of the Cherbourg port group in 60 days is a equally impressive project. That port went from near complete destruction in late June, to triple its nominal peace time capacity of 8,000 tons daily. Dock capacity was added, beaching ramps for LSTs instaled, the electrical power plant rebuilt, harbor communication system rebuilt, dry storage rebuilt and expanded. Most important of all the dock side railway capacity was more than doubled with a entire additional set of spur tracks. In early September the port intake of Cherbourg and the adjacent fishing ports surged to 24,000 tons daily.
Are there any decent on-line sites that deal with the repair and recovery of Cherbourg's port? It's an area that mostly gets overlooked in the general histories but as an engineering challenge seems pretty interesting.
 
The motivations of Benny the Moose in supporting Nazi Germany are obscure at times, because the man was very good at disguising what was driving his policies. Did he think that the German alliance might stop war from breaking out? Or was he thinking that the alliance might help him to grab more territories or land? It's hard to work out. What we do know is that although he signed the Pact of Steel he very nearly dropped it in September 1939 when he realised that war was imminent. He said that he would prefer a war in 1943 and added a shopping list of millions of tonnes of raw materials and supplies that Italy needed to be ready for war. When he did join the war it was in the mistaken impression that the war would be over in a few weeks. The overall judgement of Benny the Moose therefore has to be classified as 'flaky' at best.

Agreed, but from you examples it seems indeed that he never really believed in war until 1939. At least that explains why they were not prepared IOTL.
 
Are there any decent on-line sites that deal with the repair and recovery of Cherbourg's port? It's an area that mostly gets overlooked in the general histories but as an engineering challenge seems pretty interesting.

Check Hyper War, there are some bits there. Ellesberg had a few paragraphs in his description of the A Mulberry - 'The Far Shore'. Those remarks were from his perspective as a salvage specialist & a couple visits to the newly captured Cherborg in late June.

Ruppenthal 'Logisitcs in Overlord' has the results in the form of some numbers for cargo discharge for several dates. He also refers to the prefabricated material & personnel intended for the Quiberon Bay port (Op Chasity) being used in part to repair and expand Cherbourg during July-Aug.

I'll check my notes, but probably don't have anything else. If you find anything please let us know.
 
Interesting how there is a steep drop in intake starting in late August. This was about the same period of the Cherbourg surge, I wonder if the Brits received a substantial portion of that early September surge?

Thanks again.

Part of the fall IIRC is a switch of priorities for the British logistics system from port unloading to moving dumps forward, which was followed by moving supply lines to the Channel ports - I'll have to look up more precise details.
 
Getting back to the OP & alternates to a prefab port: The idea of LST type ships for the Italian Navy has been raised. It also occurs to me a Roll On Roll Off cargo ship design would have been useful as well. Although you cant pack as much aboard they can be off loaded extremely fast. If you don't use standard over the road lorries, but cheap throw away wagons & tug tractors for loading/discharge you avoid tying up valuable automotive transport aboard ship.

A variation of this would derive from a Cyrinacian railroad. RoRo ships that could ferry railway wagons would be fairly efficient is rapid discharge. After the ship is cleared empty cars are taken aboard to be returned to Naples, Bari, or wherever a rail to ship dock is located.
 
Getting back to the OP & alternates to a prefab port: The idea of LST type ships for the Italian Navy has been raised. It also occurs to me a Roll On Roll Off cargo ship design would have been useful as well. Although you cant pack as much aboard they can be off loaded extremely fast. If you don't use standard over the road lorries, but cheap throw away wagons & tug tractors for loading/discharge you avoid tying up valuable automotive transport aboard ship.

A variation of this would derive from a Cyrinacian railroad. RoRo ships that could ferry railway wagons would be fairly efficient is rapid discharge. After the ship is cleared empty cars are taken aboard to be returned to Naples, Bari, or wherever a rail to ship dock is located.

Thanks for returning with this. I Think the Rail suggestion makes good peacetime sense. Less loaded per sortie makes more sorties and more risk during wartime though.
 
Interesting how there is a steep drop in intake starting in late August. This was about the same period of the Cherbourg surge, I wonder if the Brits received a substantial portion of that early September surge?
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From Admin History 21st Army Group

On 30 August a weighty decision had to be taken to rely on the early capture of a Channel port such as DIEPPE or BOULOGNE and to cease bringing in large quantities of stores and vehicles through the RMA. Stores that it had formerly been considered essential to bring over from the UK were now phased back until such time as a port or ports nearer the battle area became available for their reception. Bearing in mind the satisfactory levels of supplies of all natures in the RMA, it was decided to cut down imports from an average of some sixteen thousand tons per day to only seven thousand tons per day. With the co-operation of the War Office this decision became effective in seven days. It proved invaluable as much transport was released for the direct support of the armies whereas had the original stores programmes been carried out they would have been occupied on clearing them from the beaches and ports into the depots of the RMA.
 
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