WI: Muhammad Ali of Egypt is never born

in recent times, i've taken an interest in the Mamelukes of Egypt, and have been wondering about a possible surviving Mameluke state persisting through to the 20th century as part of my ASB ATL rather than Anglo-American Rivalry (because of an event that i'll mention shortly). this led me to Muhammad Ali of Egypt, who brought about their end. since Ali's birth predates the POD of Anglo-American Rivalry, this'll have to be excluded from that TL, but i'd like to explore this possibility

let's assume that Muhammad Ali of Egypt never exists. would the Mamelukes be able to maintain power in some way for a while longer in Egypt, even if only in name? or would their violent overthrow and destruction be inevitable?
 
The Ottomans end up destroying the Mamelukes sometime around the 1830s, by someone analogous to Sultan Mahmud II.
 
Remember the guy was albanian. You dont need to keep him from being born, you just need to keep him from rising to governor (wali), especially of some place as remote fom istanbul as egypt is.
 
I have to admit this era of egyptian history is not my expertie but I'll take a crack at it. Egypt would, at least for the time being stay a vassal of the ottomans. Perhaps when the Janissaries are crushed in 1828 there will be an attempt to crush the Mamluks power as well. How rebelious were the Mamluks? A more important question is what would happen with the Suez canal? Would it still be built by the French or maybe by the British? I think the British were closer to the Ottomans than the French were.
 
The Ottomans end up destroying the Mamelukes sometime around the 1830s, by someone analogous to Sultan Mahmud II.

I think that your information is not altogether correct; in the war between Turkey and Egypt,Ibrahim Pasha,son of Ali,advanced north,invaded Turkey and defeated the Turkish army under Resit Pasha Kioutachi in the battle of Ikonium in 1839.The Turks had to conclude a quite humiliating peace...

Under the present ATL Ibrahim who was an excellent general trained in France and having his army trained by French officers,bailed out Turkey in the Greek war of Independence when he landed at Peloponnese in February 1825;if he isn't born,the Turks are going to suffer in the war and would have been forced to sign a peace with the Greeks much earlier than in 1829.
 
Well, didn't he become governor due to leading troops for the Sultan in reasserting Ottoman rule after the collapse of French power? Presumably if he is not there to do this, someone else will be, and they might achieve what he did, or they might not

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
i figured i'd bump this rather than start a new thread. a thought occurred to me concerning the potential of surviving Mamelukes: what if they were just propped up by the French, with Egypt as a puppet state (this kinda requires a Napoleonic-victory scenario, which is another thing i've been looking into)

so, anyway, yeah, what if Mameluke Egypt was a French puppet/protectorate?
 
in recent times, i've taken an interest in the Mamelukes of Egypt, and have been wondering about a possible surviving Mameluke state persisting through to the 20th century as part of my ASB ATL rather than Anglo-American Rivalry (because of an event that i'll mention shortly). this led me to Muhammad Ali of Egypt, who brought about their end. since Ali's birth predates the POD of Anglo-American Rivalry, this'll have to be excluded from that TL, but i'd like to explore this possibility

let's assume that Muhammad Ali of Egypt never exists. would the Mamelukes be able to maintain power in some way for a while longer in Egypt, even if only in name? or would their violent overthrow and destruction be inevitable?

There wasn't really a Mamluke "state" since the time of Tumen Bay II in 1516. After that Egypt was ruled by various Walis appointed by the Ottomans. The Mamluke caste persisted but as usual they were servants of the Caliph.
 
There wasn't really a Mamluke "state" since the time of Tumen Bay II in 1516. After that Egypt was ruled by various Walis appointed by the Ottomans. The Mamluke caste persisted but as usual they were servants of the Caliph.
basically im wondering if the Mamelukes could be reinstated by Napoleon as a revived Mameluke Sultanate rather than continuing the old one
 
Well there was a mamaluke revolt in the early 1770's, and the only reason that it failed was that the ottomans managed to drive a wedge between Ali Bey and his second in command. If this doesn't occur, and perhaps some foreign backing (maybe France, Britain, Austria, or other) then a surviving mamaluke state can occur earlier than Napoleon (of course this may have effects on future events in Europe) :p
 
No Muhammad Ali of Egypt would mean that Egypt stays under nominal Ottoman rule for longer. However I am certain that sooner or later Egypt will fall to European rule perhaps with the British turning Egypt into a colony this time around and later evolve it into a Dominion perhaps?
 
No Muhammad Ali of Egypt would mean that Egypt stays under nominal Ottoman rule for longer. However I am certain that sooner or later Egypt will fall to European rule perhaps with the British turning Egypt into a colony this time around and later evolve it into a Dominion perhaps?

puppet/vassal/mandate: maybe. colony: no, already settled land. dominion: no, they're muslims & won't have any bonds with brits apart from being a subject nation.
 
puppet/vassal/mandate: maybe. colony: no, already settled land.

Weren't places like Nigeria and such also called colonies? :confused:

I'll not M. Ali was also involved in settling the Saudi family's hash after they temporarily overran the Hejaz: without him, and with European distractions, how long before the Turks retake the Holy Cities?

Bruce
 
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