WI: more Occitan Sardinia Piedmont

What if Sardinia had a huge majority of Catalans and Piedmont had more Occitan speakers how would Sardinia Piedmont be involved in the unification of Italy or they would stay independent.
 
What if Sardinia had a huge majority of Catalans and Piedmont had more Occitan speakers how would Sardinia Piedmont be involved in the unification of Italy or they would stay independent.

Prestige language would still be Italian or maybe French except for an additional POD before. Piedmontese dialect is almost as far removed as Occitan is from standard Italian, and still the official language of the Piedmontese court was Italian, though French was also widespread (and it was the court languange until the capital was moved from Chambéry to Turin in the mid-16 century, IIRC). Sardinia may keep Catalan as sub-national language, but a Catalan speaking majority there, though possible, requires major changes that may or may not allow for the Sabaudian Kingdom of Sardinia as we know it. If Catalan becomes official language in Sardinia, it would detach it from Italian states at large and favor a lasting link with Spain. It's not a given, but that island could be a massive headache for anyone trying to dominate it, unless they are Catalans (and still...) after the birth of modern nationalisms. Even if Piedmont somehow becomes mostly Occitan, its variant would be hardly intelligible with the Sardinian Catalan. An invented tradition linking the two may be forged, of course, but it may be a dangerous path if leading to full Occitan-Catalan nationalism centered on Turin. Say goodbye to France and Spain after Sedan if it works at full strenghth.
Interestingly enough, that would leave room for either a divided Italy or an Italy unified under the Hapsburgs. "Italia Irredenta" would be not Trento and Trieste but, say, Genova and Novara.
What Corsica becomes in this scenario might be interesting.
 
Prestige language would still be Italian or maybe French except for an additional POD before.
Only the south-western valleys and the region of Nice have occitan speakers, and they were really far from the economical, political, religious, or anything centers.

The two ways i see to have more occitan speakers is to have a POD where the italianophone population is decimated, like a more deadful plague needing the settlement of another population, from a autonomous or independent Provence.
Or, to make Piemont annexes Provence and have more occitan-speaking zones, by having the heritance of Anjou, by exemple. (The less ASB for me)

Piedmontese dialect is almost as far removed as Occitan is from standard Italian, and still the official language of the Piedmontese court was Italian, though French was also widespread (and it was the court languange until the capital was moved from Chambéry to Turin in the mid-16 century, IIRC)
Even if i don't know very well about the differences between Gallo-Italian and Itaian (North and South Italian), the two are at least very close as Catalan and Occitan as language. I d'ont think they're unintelligible, apart from the usage today which is to maximize the orthographical differencies by reusing medieval norms (that italian used too).

Sardinia may keep Catalan as sub-national language, but a Catalan speaking majority there, though possible, requires major changes that may or may not allow for the Sabaudian Kingdom of Sardinia as we know it. If Catalan becomes official language in Sardinia, it would detach it from Italian states at large and favor a lasting link with Spain. It's not a given, but that island could be a massive headache for anyone trying to dominate it, unless they are Catalans (and still...) after the birth of modern nationalisms.
I fully agreed.

Even if Piedmont somehow becomes mostly Occitan, its variant would be hardly intelligible with the Sardinian Catalan. An invented tradition linking the two may be forged, of course, but it may be a dangerous path if leading to full Occitan-Catalan nationalism centered on Turin.
Err, Catalan and Occitan are linked. They're are an important level of interunderstability (17 of the 21 linguistic principes that make Occitan a language exists too in Catalan). They're issues from the same early roman language (Occitano-Roman or Meridional Gallo-Roman) and the proximity of them was increased by the prestige of occitan in Catalunya (and the settlement of southern Catalunya by limousins) at the point that the first catalan text we have is from XIII, long after the apparition of the language.

But, it's just linguistic and can hardly evolve to a common nationalism, except if Piemont annexes Provence and Aragon annexes Languedoc. And even here, it would be difficult.

Say goodbye to France and Spain after Sedan if it works at full strenghth.
Interestingly enough, that would leave room for either a divided Italy or an Italy unified under the Hapsburgs. "Italia Irredenta" would be not Trento and Trieste but, say, Genova and Novara.
What Corsica becomes in this scenario might be interesting.
 
Only the south-western valleys and the region of Nice have occitan speakers, and they were really far from the economical, political, religious, or anything centers.

The two ways i see to have more occitan speakers is to have a POD where the italianophone population is decimated, like a more deadful plague needing the settlement of another population, from a autonomous or independent Provence.
Or, to make Piemont annexes Provence and have more occitan-speaking zones, by having the heritance of Anjou, by exemple. (The less ASB for me)


Even if i don't know very well about the differences between Gallo-Italian and Itaian (North and South Italian), the two are at least very close as Catalan and Occitan as language. I d'ont think they're unintelligible, apart from the usage today which is to maximize the orthographical differencies by reusing medieval norms (that italian used too).


I fully agreed.


Err, Catalan and Occitan are linked. They're are an important level of interunderstability (17 of the 21 linguistic principes that make Occitan a language exists too in Catalan). They're issues from the same early roman language (Occitano-Roman or Meridional Gallo-Roman) and the proximity of them was increased by the prestige of occitan in Catalunya (and the settlement of southern Catalunya by limousins) at the point that the first catalan text we have is from XIII, long after the apparition of the language.

But, it's just linguistic and can hardly evolve to a common nationalism, except if Piemont annexes Provence and Aragon annexes Languedoc. And even here, it would be difficult.

My knowledge of Catalan and Occitan is really basic, but my perception is that they are more closely connected than Gallo-Italian and Standard Italian (based on Tuscan) are. As a native Italian speaker, I find northwestern Italian dialects unintelligible (as I do with extreme Southern ones) both in written and spoken form.
Ironically this is not the case for Catalan, for me, but that's because of my studies made me able to grasp some of it. I'm not saying that Catalan and (Tuscan)-Italian are closer.
I would not be able to speak with someone from Piedmont if we both were not raised with Standard Italian as common national language.
 
Err, Catalan and Occitan are linked. They're are an important level of interunderstability (17 of the 21 linguistic principes that make Occitan a language exists too in Catalan). They're issues from the same early roman language (Occitano-Roman or Meridional Gallo-Roman) and the proximity of them was increased by the prestige of occitan in Catalunya (and the settlement of southern Catalunya by limousins) at the point that the first catalan text we have is from XIII, long after the apparition of the language.

The Split was finalized by Nova Planta decrees which was started by Iberian/ Mozarabic influence, The Rousillon dialect still uses Oc for yes and is said to be similar to the dialects in Narbona and Foix, in the time of Eleanor of Aquitaine Catalan has not yet reached Valencia, I think had the Reconquista of Iberia was stopped earlier or if Valencia was conquered by Castille I think the dialects of Barcelona area would not have differentiated and would still be part of Occitan.

Even if i don't know very well about the differences between Gallo-Italian and Itaian (North and South Italian), the two are at least very close as Catalan and Occitan as language. I d'ont think they're unintelligible, apart from the usage today which is to maximize the orthographical differencies by reusing medieval norms (that italian used too).
Actually, Northern Italian is similar to Spanish and Occitan not to standard italian.
 
My knowledge of Catalan and Occitan is really basic, but my perception is that they are more closely connected than Gallo-Italian and Standard Italian (based on Tuscan) are. As a native Italian speaker, I find northwestern Italian dialects unintelligible (as I do with extreme Southern ones) both in written and spoken form.
Ironically this is not the case for Catalan, for me, but that's because of my studies made me able to grasp some of it. I'm not saying that Catalan and (Tuscan)-Italian are closer.
I would not be able to speak with someone from Piedmont if we both were not raised with Standard Italian as common national language.

For your experience with catalan, the fact that catalan and italian (umbrian) have writing and pronounciation norms since the modern times, that use similar classical rules is really helping. The northern italian and the southern dialects didn't had it, at least not before the late XIX or even during the XX.
When it did, it often, like in France, by using medieval norms (that could be used by umbrian too at this time) to reinforce the differenciation with italian.
Furthermore, the western europeans have lost to be used to ear dialects from their own language, that often seems to them "foreign language".
In Italy, this is critically improved by the fact that, due to the fragmentation of the peninsula all along his history, every dialect had the possibility to evolve separatly.

But, at it seems to me, at last for central and southern italian, the principes of an "independent" language being grammatical and vocabulary original base (as ethyomology) are the same, being modified by local use and transcription of it.
For Northern Italian, as i'm far being a specialist, i admit i haven't a clear view of it. Nevertheless, i think it's (like occitan) a language without "standard" but with interusable dialects composing it.

The Split was finalized by Nova Planta decrees which was started by Iberian/ Mozarabic influence, The Rousillon dialect still uses Oc for yes and is said to be similar to the dialects in Narbona and Foix. I think the dialects of Barcelona area would not have differentiated and would still be part of Occitan.

I must disagree here. If catalan didn't reach Valencia, he could still being a language, as the differenciation occurs more earlier, in the XI, during the constitutions of catalan counties.
It's the first time i see that Oc is used in catalan in rousillon. I never heard it here, honestly. Where did you have found this information? It must be used at medieval times not because of it's origin, but because of the prestige and the influence of the occitan as the catalan litterature didn't appear in the same time of the language because of it.
If the catalan didn't differenciated from occitan, it would be at least a really original dialect, as the Gascon, but it need a pre-XI POD

Actually, Northern Italian is similar to Spanish and Occitan not to standard italian.

I would more say that Northern italian is as separate of Italian as Occitan or Spanish, because the differenciation between north italian and occitan is more important than with spanish.
"Similar" could be confusing.
 
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I must disagree here. If catalan didn't reach Valencia, he could still being a language, as the differenciation occurs more earlier, in the XI, during the constitutions of catalan counties.
It's the first time i see that Oc is used in catalan in rousillon. I never heard it here, honestly. Where did you have found this information? It must be used at medieval times not because of it's origin, but because of the prestige and the influence of the occitan as the catalan litterature didn't appear in the same time of the language because of it.
If the catalan didn't differenciated from occitan, it would be at least a really original dialect, as the Gascon, but it need a pre-XI POD
The word òc came from Vulgar Latin hoc ("this"), while oïl originated from Latin hoc illud ("this [is] it"). Old Catalan and nowadays the Catalan of Northern Catalonia (France, Catalunya Nord) also have hoc (òc). Other Romance languages derive their word for yes from the Latin sic, "thus [it is], [it was done], etc.", such as Spanish sí, Eastern Lombard sé, Italian sì, or Portuguese sim. In Modern Catalan, as in modern Spanish, sí is usually used as a response, although the language retains the word oi, akin to òc, which is sometimes used at the end of Yes-no questions and in higher register also as a positive response.[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
The Standard Catalan has si but Northern Catalan uses òc which is actually pronounced as Uo.
Jo és Iu. Sí es diu Uo (semblant a l'òc [ɔ(k)] occità).
http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capcinès
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
The Standard Catalan has si but Northern Catalan uses òc.
I personally never heard it, and my dictionnary is mute on it, except for saying it was used in the old catalan.
Tough, it's possible, but new to me, probably because i have more heard standard catalan then than dialectal one.

Still, i think it's critically due to the prestige of langadocian and to the fact that occitan settle Calaunya during the middle-ages, and that the proximity of both languages (more present at this time, until the reaching of Valencia indeed) couldn't led to the supposition you made. Because of the pyreneean substrat (present in pyreneean langadocian, with the use of eth, el, by exemple) and the political separation since the collapse of Carolingian Empire, the catalan would be still a language (more next to occitan and with linguustic borders up to the Razes, maybe Narbona)
 
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Still, i think it's critically due to the prestige of langadocian and to the fact that occitan settle Calaunya during the middle-ages, and that the proximity of both languages (more present at this time, until the reaching of Valencia indeed) couldn't led to the supposition you made. Because of the pyreneean substrat (present in pyreneean langadocian, with the use of eth, el, by exemple) and the political separation since the collapse of Carolingian Empire, the catalan would be still a language (more next to occitan and with linguustic borders up to the Razes, maybe Narbona)


Actually, Gascon, Southern Lengadocian and Catalan or Aquitanopirenenc could had been more unified as a distinct group inside Occitan(but Gascon will still have the h for f words) because of the common pyrenean substrata, actually Catalan, Southern Lengadocian and Gascon are classified as Aquitanopirenenc by linguists.


The two ways i see to have more occitan speakers is to have a POD where the italianophone population is decimated, like a more deadful plague needing the settlement of another population, from a autonomous or independent Provence.
Or a change of Capital of Sardinia Piedmont to Nice from Turin.
 
Actually, Gascon, Southern Lengadocian and Catalan or Aquitanopirenenc could had been more unified as a distinct group inside Occitan(but Gascon will still have the h for f words) because of the common pyrenean substrata, actually Catalan, Southern Lengadocian and Gascon are classified as Aquitanopirenenc by linguists.
Sure, and i think you could include all Lengadocian in the Aquitanopirenenc/Preiberic zone.
But an ATL catalan (as you described in a previous post) would be still open to mozarab and iberic influencies, and will ended still (critically with a less dynamism in Gaul) to a separate language (still closer than OTL)
For a same language, as i'm working for my TL, i think it need a political unity between (at least) Tolosan and Tarragonès quite early (the IX by exemple), later it wouldn't be so efficient.


Or a change of Capital of Sardinia Piedmont to Nice from Turin.
Don't you think it could more likely lead to an italianized Nice?
 
Sure, and i think you could include all Lengadocian in the Aquitanopirenenc/Preiberic zone.
But an ATL catalan (as you described in a previous post) would be still open to mozarab and iberic influencies, and will ended still (critically with a less dynamism in Gaul) to a separate language (still closer than OTL)
For a same language, as i'm working for my TL, i think it need a political unity between (at least) Tolosan and Tarragonès quite early (the IX by exemple), later it wouldn't be so efficient.
That will only work for Nord Catalan, Southern Lengadocian and Gascon but the eastern iberian dialects(if they still exist TTL) might split into a different language.
Don't you think it could more likely lead to an italianized Nice?
Parts of Nice are actually Northern Italian speaking, I think Sardinia-Piedmont can also allow more occitan protestants to settle Sardinia-Piedmont as refugees.
 
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That will only work for Nord Catalan, Southern Lengadocian and Gascon but the Cispyrenean dialects(if they still exist TTL) might split into a different language.
You focus too much on the substrats separation. After all the medieval occian dialects were quite united, the pyreneeans substrats being digested during the occitano-romance period (the Gascon differences being due to a vascon superstrat). I don't see why, if you add a catalan super-dialect to the three others (occitan central, north occitan, gascon), why it should divided (critically between provencal and lengadocian, or north and south lengadocian).

Parts of Nice are actually Northern Italian speaking, I think Sardinia-Piedmont can also allow more occitan protestants to settle Sardinia-Piedmont as refugees.
You make a point here, the hugenots of Gascony (in the ancient regime sense, aka all the south) didn't having emigrate OTL could make a difference. It could butterfly the Camisards too.
But, by welcoming them, the King of Piemont shouldn't have some issues, with foreign powers, with papacy?

For the italian speaking of Nice, it's due critically to the long owning of the city by the Piemont, and the economical dynamism of Nice.
 
I forgot to say that Piedmontese could evolve to be an Occitan dialect or an Oil rather than be a Northen Italian dialect, the Sub-Alpine Sermons which is written in medieval Piedmontese show Occitan and French affinities.
 
I forgot to say that Piedmontese could evolve to be an Occitan dialect or an Oil rather than be a Northen Italian dialect, the Sub-Alpine Sermons which is written in medieval Piedmontese show Occitan and French affinities.

Err, affinities didn't define a language.
Besides, the Occitan and French influence could be easily explained by the transalpine communauties (Suse, Aoste, Valadas,...) and reflect more the cultural diversity of Piemont than a real pre-evolution of the language.

To clarify : the ones who wrote the Sermons used a composite "language" (based nevertheless on piemontese) to be undesrtood by a majority of people, what could use french or occitan instead of northern italian.

And, at the end, don't forget that this texts are generally more archaïcs than the current language. By exemple, trobador's texts shows the uses of XI even at the XIV. It's unlikely that the differenciation between alpine languages where at the same state than the Sermons.
 
My knowledge of Catalan and Occitan is really basic, but my perception is that they are more closely connected than Gallo-Italian and Standard Italian (based on Tuscan) are. As a native Italian speaker, I find northwestern Italian dialects unintelligible (as I do with extreme Southern ones) both in written and spoken form.
Ironically this is not the case for Catalan, for me, but that's because of my studies made me able to grasp some of it. I'm not saying that Catalan and (Tuscan)-Italian are closer.
I would not be able to speak with someone from Piedmont if we both were not raised with Standard Italian as common national language.

I would instead, with difficulty, being a Lombard. Still, I couldn't communicate with Falecius.
The only way by which I could see Piedomont picking up Occitan is a gradual shift favored by the creation of a major naional styate in what is today southern France. Plus, possibily, a slow constant migration of Occitan-speaking mountain people down the Tanaro valley and the valley system converging on the upper Po between Cuneo and Turin, and spreading from there. Still, parts of Piedmont would remain Gallo-Italian, or go Arpitan (Ivrea, likely).
 
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