WI More Lancastrian heirs?

What if Thomas Duke of Clarence, John Duke of Bedford and Humphrey Duke of Gloucester had all had legitamate male heirs?

Would this change the Hundred Years War in France and the outcome of the war, in particular if Beford has children with Anne of Burgundy this may cause the Burgundians to not switch back to the Dauphin.

Also would the Wars of the Roses even happen as York would have far less power I assume than in OTL and the hated Beauforts would likely have far less dominance at court.
 
What if Thomas Duke of Clarence, John Duke of Bedford and Humphrey Duke of Gloucester had all had legitamate male heirs?

Would this change the Hundred Years War in France and the outcome of the war, in particular if Beford has children with Anne of Burgundy this may cause the Burgundians to not switch back to the Dauphin.

Also would the Wars of the Roses even happen as York would have far less power I assume than in OTL and the hated Beauforts would likely have far less dominance at court.

Changing the outcome of the 100YW? I'm not sure that giving them kids is going to necessarily make some people better rulers than what they were OTL. IIRC The Burgundian alliance was scrapped by the English not the Burgundians, when Bedford remarried to Jacquetta of Luxemburg. So, him and Anne having a son (while it wouldn't prevent him remarrying if Anen still dies) might mean that the Burgundian alliance doesn't fracture as OTL (i.e. the Burgundians don't feel like they're being traded in for a newer model), since they still have an in at the English court - namely John's son.

Thomas having kids might necessitate a different wife for him, Margaret had kids by her previous husband, but either the last birth was traumatic or she'd hit early menopause or something. Thomas had a bastard son, so we know everything was functioning on his side as well. Suggestion might be simply Margaret's younger sister (who didn't marry OTL and entered a convent IIRC).

Humphrey is difficult. A kid by Jacqueline/Jakoba is going to be viewed as being born of a shady marriage and thus questionable legitimacy. She was divorced by the one pope but not the one who mattered. Thus, her marriage to Humphrey was regarded as bigamous/unlawful. His "marriage" (I think they're still debating on whether or not he actually married her) to Elinor Cobham was likewise problematic. The woman's charged with witchcraft (among other things). Any kid's going to carry that stigma around. So either a) let Jakoba's second marriage be dissolved by the pope who actually matters or just avoid her disastrous second marriage to start with. Or let Elinor Cobham not be charged with witchcraft (almost as difficult, AIUI she wasn't well liked).

As to Richard of York, he's moved a few places back in the succession, and even if the Beauforts are still in the picture, they're not the only family that young Henry VI would be surrounded with. So these second generation dukes of Clarence, Bedford and Gloucester are likely to fill at least some of the chairs that the Beauforts got OTL.
 
Changing the outcome of the 100YW? I'm not sure that giving them kids is going to necessarily make some people better rulers than what they were OTL. IIRC The Burgundian alliance was scrapped by the English not the Burgundians, when Bedford remarried to Jacquetta of Luxemburg. So, him and Anne having a son (while it wouldn't prevent him remarrying if Anen still dies) might mean that the Burgundian alliance doesn't fracture as OTL (i.e. the Burgundians don't feel like they're being traded in for a newer model), since they still have an in at the English court - namely John's son.

Thomas having kids might necessitate a different wife for him, Margaret had kids by her previous husband, but either the last birth was traumatic or she'd hit early menopause or something. Thomas had a bastard son, so we know everything was functioning on his side as well. Suggestion might be simply Margaret's younger sister (who didn't marry OTL and entered a convent IIRC).

Humphrey is difficult. A kid by Jacqueline/Jakoba is going to be viewed as being born of a shady marriage and thus questionable legitimacy. She was divorced by the one pope but not the one who mattered. Thus, her marriage to Humphrey was regarded as bigamous/unlawful. His "marriage" (I think they're still debating on whether or not he actually married her) to Elinor Cobham was likewise problematic. The woman's charged with witchcraft (among other things). Any kid's going to carry that stigma around. So either a) let Jakoba's second marriage be dissolved by the pope who actually matters or just avoid her disastrous second marriage to start with. Or let Elinor Cobham not be charged with witchcraft (almost as difficult, AIUI she wasn't well liked).

As to Richard of York, he's moved a few places back in the succession, and even if the Beauforts are still in the picture, they're not the only family that young Henry VI would be surrounded with. So these second generation dukes of Clarence, Bedford and Gloucester are likely to fill at least some of the chairs that the Beauforts got OTL.
Clarence and Bedford having son son would be very interesting, some people Henrys own age or slightly older could make him less mad
 
Clarence and Bedford having son son would be very interesting, some people Henrys own age or slightly older could make him less mad

That's what I thought, as long as Bedford and Clarence's sons were compotent I assume the Wars of the Roses would be avoided and there would likely be good relations between York and the Lancaster's.
 
That's what I thought, as long as Bedford and Clarence's sons were compotent I assume the Wars of the Roses would be avoided and there would likely be good relations between York and the Lancaster's.
I think it would be avoided yes. York is likely relegated sown the line of importance
 
If you get a cousin who is similar in age to Henry, and they become close, and this cousin does a few tours in France, is there any chance they'd be able to get Henry to rethink his French policy, particularly with regard to Henry's marriage and the handover of territory?

I mean, I know the English position in France is screwed anyway, but a queen other than Margaret of Anjou obviously has domestic effects.

Alternately, if the Anjou marriage does happen, to what extent could friction similar to that between York and Margaret IOTL arise between Margaret and a Lancastrian cousin ITTL?

I think it would be avoided yes. York is likely relegated sown the line of importance

Aye, he wouldn't get used to the prospect of being heir and probably wouldn't emerge as a potential leader of the opposition. And he's less liable to feel snubbed if the Henrician regime is staffed by legitimate Lancastrian cousins rather than bastard Beauforts.

Should Henry still have his episodes the senior Lancastrian cousin would probably be the obvious choice for the Protectorship.
 
If you get a cousin who is similar in age to Henry, and they become close, and this cousin does a few tours in France, is there any chance they'd be able to get Henry to rethink his French policy, particularly with regard to Henry's marriage and the handover of territory?

I mean, I know the English position in France is screwed anyway, but a queen other than Margaret of Anjou obviously has domestic effects.

Alternately, if the Anjou marriage does happen, to what extent could friction similar to that between York and Margaret IOTL arise between Margaret and a Lancastrian cousin ITTL?



Aye, he wouldn't get used to the prospect of being heir and probably wouldn't emerge as a potential leader of the opposition. And he's less liable to feel snubbed if the Henrician regime is staffed by legitimate Lancastrian cousins rather than bastard Beauforts.

Should Henry still have his episodes the senior Lancastrian cousin would probably be the obvious choice for the Protectorship.

But if John Duke of Bedford were to have a son with Anne of Burgundy the English position in France may not be screwed as that may cause the Burgundians to not switch sides as Phillip's nephew would be an English Duke.
 
Top