WI more AEW?

The USN acquired about 140 WV-2 and the USAF about 85 EC121 in the 50s for ocean barrier patrol duties. These has AN/APS20 search radars and AN/APS 45 height finding radars and crews of about 20 fore the AEW role. The USAF kept theirs and upgraded them from 1962 with better radars and the like, whereas the USN seemed to let theirs languish from 1965 with the end of the barrier patrols. While the USAF picked up maybe 40 or 50 USN (renamed in 1962) EC121s the bulk of the rest seemed to just disappear.

WI these ex-USN EC 121s were pushed out to allies? They must have had some potential since the RN and RAF used the APS 20 radar in the AEW role until 1978 and 1990 respectively. What's more there would be considerable opportunity to upgrade them cheaply enough with the USAF doing their upgrades all the way to 1969 and the E1 and its radar being retired from USN carrier service from about 1973. Would a lot of AEW&C around the world have made much difference to the many crises of the 70s and 80s?
 
So the EC121 becomes the NATO Sentry system of the 1960s? How effective were the Shacks of No8 Squadron? Would the EC121 have afforded a significant upgrade to UK defence? I think it would look good in Japanese colours as well as some others. I can see it being used in potential flashpoints such as Taiwan and Korea, although I imagine there were USAF flights based in those places anyway.

Actual combat use or use in various crises? What about Cyprus? Would a shootdown of a Greek or Turkish AEW have escalated things further? Israeli use in 1973? It's a subject worth researching I suppose.
 

NothingNow

Banned
I could see it, depending on the condition of the airframes.

A version with the radar off the Tracer, and Allison T56s would possibly be an attractive export item.
It'd provide serious AEW capability for Nations like Australia, Canada, Norway and Japan (I doubt anyone else would get a serious advantage from it versus ground based EW radars,) and could be useful for covering the BIG gap should WW3 arrive.

That said, it'd probably kill export sales of the Early Sentry and Hawkeye marks, unless the airframes were in seriously bad shape by the late 70's.
 
Firstly, I was surprised to learn that while the RN-FAA has AEW in the 50s, the RAF didn't get AEW until 1972 with surplus RN-FAA gear and no other country outside the US got AEW until the 80s. So anything scattered around amongst US Allies would be better than nothing, and undertaking upgrades would be better again.

I don't think the EC 121, or planes using gear taken from surplus EC 121s, could be the Sentry of the 60s/70s. From what I can gather the USAF EC 121s were upgraded during the Vietnam years with better radars, IFF and ESM gear to enable to operate better over land and provide comprehensive detection and interception capabilities. These planes were worked hard from 1965 until the E3 entered service in the 70s. In contrast when the USN ended barrier operations in 1965 they put their EC 121Ks into storage, and while the USAF picked up a decent number IIUC there would be maybe 80-100 in storage in 1966.

The main difference between the ex USN EC 121 of 1966 and the Shackelton of 1972 would be the dorsal height finding radar, the APS 20 would still have a fighter detection range of 65nm and ship detection range of 200nm, so AEW missions for fighters would be flown at 3000'. However by 1973 the E1 Tracer was mostly retired so perhaps these radars could be fitted instead of the old APS 20 and fighters detected at 105nm and missions flown at 6000'.
 
I'd envisage not using the Connie airframe long term but putting the gear into something else once its potential become apparent. Perhaps the Europeans could put EC 121 and E1 gear into an Atlantique or some turboprop airliner like the British put the APS 20 into the Gannet and Shackelton.
 
I wonder was there any consideration for putting AEW radar on a modified Bristol Britannia? And the Britannia AEW will use Rolls-Royce Tyne instead of the troublesome Bristol Proteus turboprop? If that happened, NATO could have fielded AEW aircraft at least by the late 1960's.

Mind you, NATO probably ended up relying on the USAF EC-121 fleet based in Europe for AEW work until the E-3 Sentry became available.
 

Nick P

Donor
How big was the Britannia, Lockheed Electra size?

Look at the Canadair Argus CP-107 which did the Maritime Recon role, it used the same wings and tails but a slightly different body than the Bristol Britannia. Both were slightly bigger than a Lockheed Electra. I don't think it would have been too hard to create an AEW version from an Argus or Britannia, but there were other plans for British AEW aircraft based on Nimrod etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CP-107_Argus
 

sharlin

Banned
Don't forget that the UK poured millions down the drain with the boondoggle of the Nimrod AEWACS a project that seemed doomed to failure from the get go.
 
The Nimrod AEW3 wouldn't have been a failure if it was in a VC10 airframe, the fuck-off-awesome avionics needed breathing room to keep cool and do its thing.
 
The problem isn't finding a good airframe it is getting electronics that can take the constant use and abuse. I worked on the flightline with some avionics troops who had worked on EC-121s earlier in their career. Climbing down into the 'scrotom' (The belly radar bulge) and sliding around on the hydraulic fluid that had leaked from the motors that rotated and elevated the antenna, having to manipulate and remove components were clearly labeled '2 Man Lift' by yourself because two people couldn't fit into the compartment, etc. Some of these components were expected to fail every flight!

AEW was pretty much at it's limits with the EC-121/E-1 generation of aircraft. Total intercept control and airspace management (AWACS) had to wait for the newere electronics.
 
The Nimrod AEW3 wouldn't have been a failure if it was in a VC10 airframe, the fuck-off-awesome avionics needed breathing room to keep cool and do its thing.

I'm not sure if the Nimrod style front and aft paired antennas would have worked on a VC-10 airframe with the rear mounted engines
 
Whaddya think?

VC10numbnutsAEW.jpg
 
The VC10 was the ideal AEW aircraft. Sadly 'twas not to be. In VC10 Pofflers there are 2 different AEW aircraft at the very least proposed. One was in the 1960s and was proposed as a do it all baseline design with versions doing AEW, MPA, tanker, transport and finally stand off missile carrier. In the 70s it was again proposed for all those roles PLUS conventional bomber with around 80k lb bomb load and also most intriguingly rather large missile interceptor toting a far larger radome for Foxhunter style radar plus whole command suite embarked to carry out fighter control operations plus also with it toting 18 CF299 aka Sea Dart missiles. So ultimate Cold War RAF 11 Group could have witnessed 1-2 AEW squadrons of VC10 and 3 to 4 of the missile and fighter control VC10 (the largest fighter ever built) along with Phantoms or who knows what.

Another idea is with the Type 43 destroyer, this was a thi of acquired taste that got cancelled by John Nott. Basically a double ended Sea Dart destroyer also toting a single 4.5 in gun, 4 Sea Wolf systems, STWS2, some form of SSM and light ordanance along with capacity for at least 2 Sea King. Now it only takes a short leap of faith to imagine 6 Type 43 being ordered as planned after initial 8 Type 42s, with the Type 43s getting AEW Sea Kings embarked to allow them to act as AD pickets, the Type 22s getting ASW Sea Kings and then seeing them operate in a 2 Type 22 and 1 Type 43 combo.
 
I wonder if the RAF had picked up EC 121K from the USN in 1965/6 and maybe upgraded them with E1 radars in 1973/4 the experience they gained with these complex, cantankerous beasts wouldn't be enough to allow them to avoid the biggest problems with the Nimrod AEW project. IOTL I think the RAF went in blind to the problems of aircraft built wholly around massive electronic devices and selected the wrong airframe which compounded the technical problems.
 
Top