WI: Mongol conquest of India

Kaiphranos · Aug 28, 2012

After doing some poking around (mostly on Wikipedia) my guess is that a successful Mongol invasion will, at best, result in another iteration of the Delhi Sultanate--OTL, it was run by like five different dynasties, all or most of them Turkic-speakers who presumably came off the steppe; a Mongol dynasty would slot right in. As one of the more remote bits, and one where actual Mongols are going to be comparatively scarce on the ground, it'll probably be one of the first to split off as the Mongol empire separates, and will probably nativize pretty quickly...

scholar · Aug 28, 2012

Kaiphranos said:
After doing some poking around (mostly on Wikipedia) my guess is that a successful Mongol invasion will, at best, result in another iteration of the Delhi Sultanate--OTL, it was run by like five different dynasties, all or most of them Turkic-speakers who presumably came off the steppe; a Mongol dynasty would slot right in. As one of the more remote bits, and one where actual Mongols are going to be comparatively scarce on the ground, it'll probably be one of the first to split off as the Mongol empire separates, and will probably nativize pretty quickly...

I would seriously doubt that, unless one views the Mughal Empire as merely another iteration of the Delhi Sultanate.

It is not impossible to reproduce the Mughals beforehand, in fact it was more than likely to succeed in the beginning then that fragment of the Timurids.

Kaiphranos · Aug 28, 2012

scholar said:
I would seriously doubt that, unless one views the Mughal Empire as merely another iteration of the Delhi Sultanate.

It is not impossible to reproduce the Mughals beforehand, in fact it was more than likely to succeed in the beginning then that fragment of the Timurids.

I'm talking 1240's to 1260's Mongols here. Is their rule really going to differ that much from the Slave Dynasty they'd be replacing/taking over?

RGB · Aug 28, 2012

Kaiphranos said:
I'm talking 1240's to 1260's Mongols here. Is their rule really going to differ that much from the Slave Dynasty they'd be replacing/taking over?

Doubtful. They were out of manpower for administration at this point. They used Muslims in China, even. They will rely on the locals.

scholar · Aug 28, 2012

Kaiphranos said:
I'm talking 1240's to 1260's Mongols here. Is their rule really going to differ that much from the Slave Dynasty they'd be replacing/taking over?

Incredibly so, because the Mongols had very different means of governance. The Il Khanate was not another Khwarizmian Empire, nor was the Golden Horde another Cumania. The Mongols had a habit of adopting bureacracies, but they also had an entirely different approach to religion. In the beginning of their conquests the Mongols hated, truly hated, Muslims. Calling them slaves and ranking them in some of the lowest tiers their various caste systems allowed. This was relaxed, and ironically most converted to Islam and cast out the Mongols that didn't convert to an acceptable faith. This didn't mean they didn't use them. Useful people were used regardless of faith, but they certainly didn't like them at the time.

They wouldn't be taking over, they'd be conquering. Given that this is the Mongols we're talking about, there would be a few destroyed cities. Delhi, the seat of the resistance, would, for starters, be erased or they would try.

Badshah · Aug 28, 2012

scholar said:
Incredibly so, because the Mongols had very different means of governance. The Il Khanate was not another Khwarizmian Empire, nor was the Golden Horde another Cumania. The Mongols had a habit of adopting bureacracies, but they also had an entirely different approach to religion. In the beginning of their conquests the Mongols hated, truly hated, Muslims. Calling them slaves and ranking them in some of the lowest tiers their various caste systems allowed. This was relaxed, and ironically most converted to Islam and cast out the Mongols that didn't convert to an acceptable faith. This didn't mean they didn't use them. Useful people were used regardless of faith, but they certainly didn't like them at the time.

They wouldn't be taking over, they'd be conquering. Given that this is the Mongols we're talking about, there would be a few destroyed cities. Delhi, the seat of the resistance, would, for starters, be erased or they would try.

They would try, but it's doubtful. After Baghdad however, Delhi was THE seat of Muslim knowledge and culture, so it would be a very big target...but again, Delhi isn't the only factor. The Rajputs would give the Mongols a run for their money.

scholar · Aug 28, 2012

trollhole said:
They would try, but it's doubtful. After Baghdad however, Delhi was THE seat of Muslim knowledge and culture, so it would be a very big target...but again, Delhi isn't the only factor. The Rajputs would give the Mongols a run for their money.

Cairo has the honor, Delhi... I don't think is a rival to them.

The Rajputs and the dozens of other groups in India are highly divided and contentious amongst themselves. Destroy/sack Delhi and they'll all rise up individually, but they're also more easy to defeat individually than under a single banner. Especially since Rajputs are not a united... anything, being heavily divided.

B_Munro · Aug 28, 2012

There's another TL idea: "The Rajputs get their shit together."

Bruce

kasumigenx · Aug 28, 2012

I think an Earlier Mongol invasion of India is possible if the Kievian Rus and Volga Bulgaria became strategic allies instead of fighting each other and thus they stop the Mongols from invading Eastern Europe just like what happened in Japan so the Mongols would divert their conquests to India instead.

eliphas8 · Aug 28, 2012

kasumigenx said:
I think an Earlier Mongol invasion of India is possible if the Kievian Rus and Volga Bulgaria became strategic allies instead of fighting each other and thus they stop the Mongols from invading Eastern Europe just like what happened in Japan so the Mongols would divert their conquests to India instead.

Why wouldnt they go south and conquer in the general area Timur took over? I mean Anatolia was the stomping ground of plenty of Nomadic groups throughout its history.

Badshah · Aug 28, 2012

scholar said:
Cairo has the honor, Delhi... I don't think is a rival to them.

The Rajputs and the dozens of other groups in India are highly divided and contentious amongst themselves. Destroy/sack Delhi and they'll all rise up individually, but they're also more easy to defeat individually than under a single banner. Especially since Rajputs are not a united... anything, being heavily divided.

Delhi is a rival in a lot of circles. Sultanate era Delhi was pretty bloody huge (Not so much in the physical sense, but in the Islamic World).

The Rajputs often got their shit together when an external force came to their lands....Rana Sangha, Prithviraj Chauhan...they had managed to build their own empires. In addition there's also the Afghan rulers that the Mongols will have to contend with, like the Sultan of Gujarat or Bengal.

Basically, it's too much trouble for the Mongols to take on. Too many factions would occur and it could go any way.

Oh and to one of the other posters, the Mughal Empire sort of was the spiritual successor to the Delhi Sultanate. Certainly more so than it was to the Mongol Empire.

kasumigenx · Aug 28, 2012

Delhi is a rival in a lot of circles. Sultanate era Delhi was pretty bloody huge (Not so much in the physical sense, but in the Islamic World).

The Rajputs often got their shit together when an external force came to their lands....Rana Sangha, Prithviraj Chauhan...they had managed to build their own empires. In addition there's also the Afghan rulers that the Mongols will have to contend with, like the Sultan of Gujarat or Bengal.

Basically, it's too much trouble for the Mongols to take on. Too many factions would occur and it could go any way.

Oh and to one of the other posters, the Mughal Empire sort of was the spiritual successor to the Delhi Sultanate. Certainly more so than it was to the Mongol Empire.

But an earlier Mongol invasion could uproot it.

Badshah · Aug 28, 2012

kasumigenx said:
But an earlier Mongol invasion could uproot it.

There's always a possibility...but I doubt it would stay uniquely Mongol. Any such invasion would turn into something more like the Mughals....I doubt they could tame the massive population of India. On the plus side, such an invasion early on could actually serve as a uniting force with a Mongol Emperor serving as Badishah-i-Hind essentially creating a united country in the area. After all, the Mongols in China were Sinicized as well.

Zuvarq · Aug 28, 2012

If the Mongols were really lucky, they could invade after a fairly big earthquake hit the city of Delhi.

wolf_brother · Aug 28, 2012

So... we have the Mongols limited mostly to Asia, as oppose to Eurasia, with a more evenly developed East and West Europe, and perhaps Christianity taking a stronger role in the Middle East while Islam pushes further into Asia. Interesting.

kasumigenx · Aug 28, 2012

wolf_brother said:
So... we have the Mongols limited mostly to Asia, as oppose to Eurasia, with a more evenly developed East and West Europe, and perhaps Christianity taking a stronger role in the Middle East while Islam pushes further into Asia. Interesting.

I think the Mongols and the Christians could be enemies of the Caliphates in the Middle East at the same time.

Badshah · Aug 28, 2012

wolf_brother said:
So... we have the Mongols limited mostly to Asia, as oppose to Eurasia, with a more evenly developed East and West Europe, and perhaps Christianity taking a stronger role in the Middle East while Islam pushes further into Asia. Interesting.

But why would Christianity play a stronger role in the Middle East? If we're talking about a Mongol Empire that didn't touch the Middle East, then Islam could likely push into Europe as well.

kasumigenx · Aug 28, 2012

trollhole said:
But why would Christianity play a stronger role in the Middle East? If we're talking about a Mongol Empire that didn't touch the Middle East, then Islam could likely push into Europe as well.

But how could they expand to europe.

Badshah · Aug 28, 2012

kasumigenx said:
But how could they expand to europe.

Depending on the situation, really. Without the Mongols destroying Baghdad, The Islamic World would continue to maintain a higher development and gain an advantage over Europe.

Elfwine · Aug 28, 2012

trollhole said:
Depending on the situation, really. Without the Mongols destroying Baghdad, The Islamic World would continue to maintain a higher development and gain an advantage over Europe.

Although the advantage here is not really as much in the Islamic world's favor of as it was two centuries ago.

And Baghdad, while a center of learning and culture, is irrelevant as a center of power.

Also, how are the Volga-Bulgarians and Rus allying going to stop the Mongols again? Mongol attention primarily on Asia rather than Eurasia would be interesting, but I question that being a viable POD for it.

Not to mention that the Rus have a lot working against them being not left behind - yay for being a large in area, small in population state.