WI: Modern Crimson Skies

[RanulfC]

Here is the second draft of the ATL:

Put my beliefs out there for this

1946: Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel establishes the "Kingdom of Vice" in Las Vegas, Nevada, sparking controversy throughout the North American continent...

Since he's taking a bit from Hollywood and Deseret I'd avoid calling it "that" exactly but I like the idea as there's a nice straight highway between Salt Lake City and Vegas IOTL for a very good reason
(Be a 'neutral and protected' railroad ITTL though )

Free City of Las Vegas maybe? (Unlike OTL the area would have fallen somewhat under Deseret so the "legal" underpinnings wouldn't be there but it's likely that by that time both Hollywood and Deseret could be made to see the "business opportunities" of the idea.)

My suspicions on the "bomb" is that TTL they would be seriously delayed unless Britain has a clear indication that the Germans are working on it already. And as I've pointed out I can't see the same WWII happening for reasons given. The big problem is that the German Jew diaspora OTL has issues because while the US took in a good number that won't happen TTL and what states will do so will not have the organization or resources to pursue the issue TTL. Granted all the pieces were in place for the idea in Britain but, again, the resources and will probably won't be given the bureaucracy of the period. Everyone by the late 40s knew that a bomb could be built but no one other than the US had started a crash program to get the materials and methods in place and without the excess US effort the entire thing will probably be shelved till well after the war.

1951: Argentina under President Juan Peron announces the detonation of a nuclear weapon at San Carlos de Bariloche, Argentina, near the Chilean border triggering fears of war in North America,...

Why? It's very much South America and no one has much quarrel TTL with the Nations of North America because we've been very bush keeping to ourselves. I can see Britain and France being concerned though...

1952: Pope Pius XIII announces a call for a second "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Rome, Italy, targeting the ISA and the Russian successor states,...

When did the ISA become Communist? Further I would expect this MUCH earlier TTL. Which is why I'm leaning towards a Communist/Allies WWIII rather than the one we had.

1953: Psychohistorian Ward Moore secretly begins the "Project JUBILEE" in an effort to reunify the North American continent, from New York City, New York,...

My problem with the idea and concept of "Psychohistory" is simply it was usable for manipulation of "large mass" of people which the smaller nations of North America (and the world in general other than possible a still existing French and British Empires and Soviet USSR) would make such manipulations far less effective. Frankly if you're going to have "rogue" Psychohistorians around they are going to be working to disrupt and disband the larger nations not re-unite the smaller ones as it's going. The former are less chaotic while the latter will be difficult at best to do the math on.

On that note;

A concept of the late 40s and early 50s was a possible rise of a class of "Free Scientists" who would pursue science for anyone willing to pay as long they were allowed "freedom" within boundaries. An example here if anyone is interested (and pretty good story) by H. Beam Piper called "The Mercenaries" (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18814/18814-h/18814-h.htm) I can actually see them arising in the CS world due to the vagaries of nation-states. The ideas of science and medicine "without borders" of course carries a LOT of possible outcomes (far more bad than good IMO given some of the more horrific possibilities) TTL than OTL but would it be possible for those groups to both suppress things they didn't want to get out and enhance those they did? The more fantastical and "pulp" science of the CS universe would seem to indicate something more akin to this than OTL process. What do you all think?

1954: John Calvin King I, launches an armed insurrection in Dixie, proclaiming "by any means necessary" the need to overthrow the apartheid regime,....

Pretty much a given at some point but it's going to be a "very bad thing" for blacks in Dixie in the end. I can actually see the KKK and Southern "Old Guard" being behind something like this is ANY reforms have been undertaken in the last 20 years so they can leap up and "save" Dixie while telling everyone they told them so and gaining immense popular power over the event. Blaming it on subversives from the PC and Northern powers would help consolidate their power as well. (Hello Falwell theocracy precursors )

1954: Crooners Coup led by Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., et al. seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada)

And I could see them pushing it as an alternative for media work to the Empire State and Hollywood as well

1958: "Pirate Radio" begin transmitting in portions of Germany, Denmark, Ireland and Great Britain, quickly becoming an international phenomenon,....

Taking their que from the by now hundreds of "independent" radio station in the North American nations

1959: Rocketry becomes a fascination of the North Americans but the defeated Germans still hold the commanding lead, it is a surprise to the British when the Russians put a satellite in orbit only two years after they do so...

Much as I'd like to see this in honesty the technical and resources needed would preclude most "people" from engaging in this unlike aircraft. It might be more important for nations but individuals aren't going to be able to participate which is what was a driver for aviation.

1960- The Magnificent Seven documentary made about a mercenary aero squadron defending a island in the Caribbean.(that's not a bad scenario idea)

Great idea as it's perfect for the genre

1961: Elijah Muhammad, leader of the Nation of Islam (NOI), and George Lincoln Rockwell, North American Fascist Party (NAFP) announce a summit in New York City, New York,....

That's going to go SO well

1961: Robert F. Williams launches Radio Free Dixie in Monroe, North Carolina, calling upon African-Americans to launch an armed insurrection in Dixie, triggering fears of a race war across the continent,.....

And if the Protectorate of the Outer Banks has lasted this long it's going down now, in flames. Given the probable tensions brought about by the earlier King 1 insurrection EVERYONE is going to stand aside as this gets flattened. Really BAD timing.

1961: Celtic League is formed by Hugh McDiarmid in Dublin, calling for the creation of Pan-Celtic Empire, uniting Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, Isle of Man, and Scotland,...

And pic the most fractious groups to try and organize why don't you If Britain still has any Empire at this point they are GOING to have to do "something" about this.

1961: An even greater surprise was the cooperation of Hollywood, Dixie, and the Empire State in the Star Alliance space program launching their first satellite via a two-stage system using seven Aerojet X-8s as a first stage and one as a second stage.Their first man in space (reportedly decided by a drinking contest of all things!) would be David McCampbell flying his 'Progress' capsule from Cape Canaveral to near Britain.

I'd say anyone BUT Dixie here as they have enough internal problems at the moment. Either Hollywood or the Empire State could actually do this much (its a suborbital flight after all, and why are you launching NORTH of all directions?) on their own. I'd suggest an Empire State flight from New Jersey to near Britain as it's more plausible. Meanwhile Hollywood in conjunction with the Kingdom of Hawaii launches a similar suborbital hop from Hawaii to off the California coast.
(My gut tells me though these would both be "Sangar" type spaceplanes rather than capsules due to a lot more pressure given the love of aircraft towards winged vehicles)

1962: North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) , launched by President John F. Kennedy of the New England Confederation, serves to establish a a military and political alliance to provide relative peace in the Western Hemisphere,....

Going to point out again it's far to early for a North American UN with teeth. Free Trade is possible but a military and political union would be a step to far unless there's an outside threat you haven't brought up yet. Sorry but the butterflies would have to be B-52s (with some European markings on them) for this to fly at this point. It's been a little over 30 years at this point.

1962: North America gets the first man into space, fueling the start of the "Space Race",....

Since France and the UK (and most of Europe) at this point are either cooperating to contain Communism or more fractious due to other factors I'd wager that a Franco/British effort would put the first man in space if the Soviets don't do it first. Since North America is not much of a threat or even a concern for the Euro-Asian nations it would be little noticed in the US and IF the "American's" do it first then everyone's going to be worried about their ability (specifically as you have them "United" at the moment and therefore a much more credible "threat" to everyone else) project power outside of North America. This would quickly devolve into a "Cold War" where Europe is trying to break the US up again while containing and limiting the influence of the world Communism.

This is why I'd look to take out "World Communism" sooner as in a WWII analog. You'd have a lot more tensions in Europe with a stronger Germany after the war and a weakened France and England but on average they would be a tripartite power structure. A possible issue with a Communist China might balance that out but probably not as they have a lot of room between them and it. Under the circumstances given they are going to be looking at breaking up the US before it becomes a problem for them.

1962: Philip K. Dick begins launching nationalist rallies calling for the expulsion of all foreign troops from the North American continent, starting in San Francisco, California,...

And that would be the spark to get them motivated

1963: Treaty of Lagos; African Union (AU) is formed in Lagos, Nigeria, serving as the political union of the continent severing all ties with European colonialist leaders,....

Obviously caused by African's of American descent instigating a revolution in the European sphere of influence!

1964-Hughes-Goddard announced the successful launch of a orbital craft. Piloted by Charles "Chuck"Yeager and test subject Norma Jean (femme fatale and reputedly Einstein's mistress) the 'Atalanta' conducted tests for future flights and took extensive photographs of the Earth. Rival companies have announced they will follow suit after H-G has shown the way.

Isn't she a mafioso as well? Seriously two people into orbit on the fist try is step to far. Just send Chuck

1965: Treaty of Helsinki; Nordic leaders led by Hans Hedtoft, call for the creation of a Greater Scandinavia,...

More American backed interference within Europe, truely these colonials need to be brought to heel... (Ya THAT speech is going to play VERY well in NA ) On the other hand such rhetoric would server to drive the NA nations INTO such a union as you suggest...

1966-Europa Treaty(no NATO) begins to unravel: France and Spain quit due to economic/political/ego reasons, Greece and Turkey's 'altercations' erupt into full scale war. Germany's Civil War ends with Imperial Restorationists defeating the last remnants of Nazism at their so-called National Redoubt. Internal strife continues as a Imperial administration takes hold.

1966: Treaty of Europa is criticized as being "the Dictator's Club", citing a lack of commitment towards human rights or economic reforms,....

Moved that around for you THIS would be be incentive for the former US to get together but you'd still have a lot of internal resentment to overcome and Dixie's problems are going to make it difficult at best to integrate it with a new Union or even an alliance. NOW would be a time for Kennedy to propose a more comprehensive NAFTA agreement, but as noted there are internal conflicts that have to be resolved first.

1967-Mid East Coalition Six-Day Summit which establishes economic, political and religious ties for the region. Consensus that it would be better to sell arms, oil and goods to the rest of the world together than tear each other apart. Also establishes a lucrative global corporate merc system.(that way there can be a 'Texas-Israeli War'.)

Find a way to negate British influence earlier in Palestine and this might work. And while I like T/IW as a book it really doesn't work as well as a background without a total removal of everyone hostile to Israel somehow. Given you reconstituted the Persian Empire earlier that's going to be difficult.

1967: Argentinean, African Union, and Chinese forces begin transporting drugs en masse into North America, Europe, et al., under a policy of neo-mercantilism,...

Well now you've given a good reason for Europe and North America to go to war together to stop this as it's clearly an attempt to undermine and subvert the Northern Hemisphere's governments. Seriously, such an overt act would get each and every nation participating bombed into the stone age and taken over as new colonies of the effected nations They didn't do this OTL for a very good reason

1967: Principality of Sealand established by Paddy Roy Bates, becomes the first nation-state formed from an artificial territory (an abandoned oil rig), off the coast of Great Britain,....

And there's a good use for your Israeli Mercs. Taken over by a "dissenter" and blown up with dynamite.

1968: Pope Paul VI calls for a renewed call for the "liberation of the Holy Land", recruiting Christian militia and mercenary forces across the globe,....

What brings this on? Frankly he's not going to get much support even with the above "coalition" holding the holy lands. Most national governments are going to be calling on him to reign in South America over the above drug issues and this is just out there.

1968-Pope Paul VI increases the monastic/convent orders, re-instates military orders and forms a Papal Airforce.(very strict flying nuns..)

Nuns in tight flight suits aside this is going to cause Italy to "do something" about this nut let alone the rest of the world. This would be a direct threat to Italy's government.

1969: Reverend Charles Manson, Family Ministries, launches a series of murders and bombings in Los Angeles, California aimed at triggering a "racial holy war"

Charles Manson, "self-proclaimed" Reverend of the Family of Light, maybe and he'd be put down faster and harder than OTL I'm thinking as no one wants this to actually become a thing. Yet it WILL end up leading to such activities as it did OTL.

1969: Elvis Presley seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada) proclaiming a "new era in music and culture",...

Can't argue with the King can I

1969-1971: American Indian Movement (AIM) guerrilla forces seize control of Alcatraz Island, proclaiming an independent state,...

Still Hollywood's premier prison so I don't see it and while they might work as per below it won't fly in Hollywood any longer than it takes to drop some gas bombs on them. (Knockout gas of course but...)

1970: American Indian Movement (AIM) led by Iron-Wielder, Leonard Peltier, and Russell Means, launch an armed insurrection in North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, and Montana,...

Where it infringes on the ISA I see this failing, hard. Under your NAFTA union though this can't and won't stand and there will be NAFTA troops probably all the way to the Arctic circle under the circumstances. Under still dis-United States I see this being more successful though it will mostly be Pacifica that suffers and I still see it failing on the borders of the ISA and not gaining much traction in the PC. Deseret won't give up Wyoming territory without a fight as it's too close to Utah.

1974-Warsaw Pact cascading revolt against troops used in Chinese theater.

What brought about the Warsaw Pact? (You recall you insist there is no NATO and the Europa agreement isn't as much of a threat without US backing as a standing nation) The USSR isn't TTL going to include most of the Northern European nations unless we had exactly the same WWII and I've pointed out that's not likely.

1976: Biological weapons are unleashed, ending the Sino-Russian War, but triggering a massive humanitarian crisis as the few remaining systems that maintained the illusion of state stability suddenly collapse on both sides of the conflict,....

I can see this but it would probably happen before a Communist Victory in China and I'd have it happening around the middle of WWII. Especially if it looks like Communist China and the USSR are going to gang up on the Nationalists and to get rid of Japan as threat. (Then again I'm leaning towards Japan and the USSR agreeing to divide China among them with the USSR supporting a Communist China rump-state till they can "get around" to taking out the Japanese and the Japanese thinking the same thing)

1977: Elvis Presley dies, causing a major succession crisis, Queen Ann-Margret launches a series of brutal executions in an effort to maintain power in the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada),...

While I see a 'succession crisis" over Elvis' death it would be more shadowy and less overt. Beside you want to have a call going out for the next "king" of Jazzy-Blues to come an audition to take his spot. (Six String Samurai )

1977: African-American gang leader Cornelius "King" Young is assassinated allegedly by police, after uniting the various gangs under his banner in New York City, New York,...

Hey at least it's a lot less messy than having the Navy fire on the city like they did when the White Gangs took over (Another classic movie)

1978: First pirate television broadcasts are launched in Syracuse, New York in an effort to promote resistance across North America,....

To what? And why TV since with radio you don't have to show your face where the "authorities" can see it.

1979: Juhayman al-Otaybi is proclaimed Mahdi in Mecca, proclaiming the Caliphate in Mecca, claiming control over most of the Middle East and North Africa,....

There goes the "unity" of the Middle East...

1979: Order of Prometheus is established by L. Neil Smith as a ultra-nationalist effort to reunify the former United States of America in Denver, Colorado,...

NAFTA already did that so this doesn't make sense in context. I can see it if NAFTA isn't working fast enough and there is still little in place other than trade but you have a military and political union already. AND someone who's taken control of the government and is trying to reestablish a Federal system. (Assuming that's what the above pirate TV is about)

This only works where NAFTA fails completely.

1980: America United members launch a purge of North American Parliament members of "foreign agents" in Washington D.C.,..

Already happened and this would cause NAFTA to fully fall apart

1981: Manhattan Island is completely submerged after years of flooding since c.1945, but residents refuse to leave, transforming the city into a modern-day Venice,....

What caused the flooding and why is it permanent?

1981: American and European dissidents led by William S. Burroughs seize control of Madagascar, establishing the "Independent Republic of Libertatia",....

This is another thing that's going to end "well" I'm sure...

quote]1983: "Screaming Lord" David Edward Sutch seizes control of the English government in a political coup in London, England,....[/quote]

For those of us without context what's the main thrust of this happening? New British Empire? Fascism? Communist? Declares himself King? What?

1984: Pope John Paul II launches a call for a third "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Gdansk, Poland, signaling that "We are blessed by the Virgin Mary",...

The USSR and China have both collapsed into plague ridden nations so where's this directed and at whom? (And he's got his own Air Force and militant orders so why declare it in Poland and not at "home" in Rome?)

1985: Church of Elvis Presley is established in Memphis, Tennessee and the "Republic of Vice"(Las Vegas, Nevada),...

This has always been an "in" joke OTL but does anyone really see this happening?

1986: Dixie declares a "State of Emergency" citing growing opposition to the apartheid regime by African-American guerrillas and calls to release John Calvin King I from prison,.....

This would be relevant but with NAFTA either the revolt never happened or it's more nation wide as NAFTA troops were used to put down the rebellion. Given that NAFTA has pretty much collapsed due to internal coups (at least twice) Dixie would have done this sooner and there would be no help from the outside which means it's going to be bloodier and earlier.

1986-1992: Collapse of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere due to armed insurrections and revolutions throughout East Asia from the Philippines to Manchukuo, triggering a refugee crisis across the region,....

When did the GEACPS happen and how? For this to happen Japan had to stay out of WWII and not attack or move into any allied nations and I don't see this happening. Further it would have been involved in the Sino-Soviet war and it's aftermath which would have it collapsing (due to its dependency on China/Manchukuo it's going to be a victim of the biological warfare and fare much poorer when things collapse) sooner and be much worse off.

1989: Reverend Pat Robertson takes control of the "America United" movement in Atlanta, Georgia, proclaiming a Christian theocracy,...

Not much effect since NAFTA is no longer viable and no nation is going to take him seriously.

1991: NAFTA forces launch an invasion of Texas, after it threatens to seize oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, Coalition forces led by New England Confederation President George H.W. Bush overthrow the regime led by H. Ross Perot,....

After THREE coups, (including two parliamentary purges) how is NAFTA even able to be a cohesive organization let alone command any troops and why if it IS still viable it it attacking Texas which is a part of it? EVERY nation would withdraw their troops and bomb the "capitial" flat at this point and wash their hands of anything resembling "Unionist" policies forever more after this kind of fiasco. No way they would "win" anything it just doesn't follow logically. NAFTA is a horrible mess within a few years of founding under this scenerio.

Sorry but I can't buy any of the NAFTA timeline it just doesn't make sense under the circumstances and especially as unstable and counterproductive as it becomes so soon after founding.

1992: Siege of Los Angeles, General Darryl Gates launches a siege of the city, imposing martial law, claiming that he is attempting to root out corruption, ...

Coup in Hollywood or what brought this on?

1994: Reconquista Mexico (a.k.a. Second Mexican-American War) Carlos Truxillo and Jose Angel Gutierrez lead a war of reconquest against the former United States, in an attempt to reconquer California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Utah and Colorado,....

Given the above there's no one to stop them short of the Canadian border now

1994: Vladimir Zhirinovsky launches an ultra-nationalist revolution in Moscow, calling for the unification of the Eurasian continent under his rule, as a means to counter the threat to the Caliphate,....

Got those plagues under control Vlad? Given 17 years this will be about putting the core of Russia back together but I don't see anyone taking it seriously for another decade or so. Or him having the power to get much further by that time. (Assuming whomever used bio attacks the last time doesn't simply release a new strain to quite him down)

1994: Crime lords Tupac Shakur and Notorious B.I.G. , take advantage of the Second Mexican-American War, uniting their resources on the East and West coasts of the North American continent,...

Or they take advantage to launch a coup on the Kingdom of Vice to spread the "new" sound of the Black Soul Really don't see this happening at all.

1994: Psychohistorian Harry Turtledove emerges as one of the leaders of the field, creating "analogue system equations " which serve to predict events with uncanny accuracy, in Los Angeles, California,...

1995: Psychohistorian Robert Conroy, utilising the same programs of Harry Turtledove , calls for basic reforms in the former Industrial States of America,...

Shout outs are cool but I still have major issues with "psychohistory" and any assumptions that in the CS universe it's going to be able to "handle" people

1995: "Sliders" movement is launched by Tracy Torme and Robert K. Weiss, proclaiming "technological interconnection " justifying political reunification of the North American continent, with rallies starting in San Francisco, California,...

Four years after NAFTA troops have taken over Texas someone is STILL trying to "unite" the US? I think you need to fully re-read your own timeline

1996: Neo-Swing Music Renaissance; Groups such as the Squirrel Nut Zippers, Michael Buble, Connie Champagne, Lavay Smith & the Hot-Skillet Lickers, Pink Martini, the Brian Setzer Orchestra, serve to revive the music scene

And move it away from the Kingdom of Vice where entertainment is now centered?

1996: Japanese officials launch policy of "Hikkomori" (extreme isolationism) sealing themselves from the rest of the world after the collapse of the Co-Prosperity Sphere,...

Think they would have done this at the end of the Sino-Soviet war and the START of the collapse due to infection by the bio-weapons.

2001: World Social Forum (WSF) is established in Porto Alegre, Brazil, citing the ineffective nature of the League of Nations and its Eurocentric and racist nature,....

How did the LoN survive any sort of WWII? I'd have expected this to happen in the 1970s actually.

2002: Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, launch the "ARK Intiative" to evacuate Earth, citing the growing anti-intellectualism, environmental destruction, and the political anarchy (Think Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow)

Planning on using an atomic rocket that obliterates the Earth on take off as well? I suspect SOMEONE is going to have issue if so

2003: Coalition forces launch a second attack into Texas, after the threat of an embargo against NAFTA states, trigger civil unrest and panic across much of the North American continent,....

??? They WON the first time around and if THAT didn't trigger "civil unrest and panic"...

2003: Tom Kratman , New England Confederation, calls for national reunification citing his outrage over the growing wave of "cultural socialism ",...

WTF? NAFTA isn't "re-unified" enough for him and WHAT cultural socialism?

Needs some editing and work

Randy

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Thanks for the shouts out and the commentary. I will try to address all of them as soon as possible, but in the course of the story, consider that NAFTA is like the EEC or EU, a loose confederation of nations which determines economic and in some cases political policies. The idea of the Jubilee Project and psychohistorians is to force a political federal union.

Psychohistory is like weather or economic forecasting, while it can't predict the future with 100% accuracy, it can provide a series of possible options and probabilities which can be charted. Think of game theory and how it is actually pretty good and providing options as to what is happening and the direction of things,....

 

[RanulfC]

(Sorry my wife reminded me to late to cut off and NOT write novel-sized responses. Won't be offended if no one read the last it's a bit too long, ok a LOT to long)

Details:

ChiPS: HAPs
California Highway Patrol with Ponch and John will be the (Nation of) Hollywood Air Police with Burt Lancaster and Nick Cravat

I'd think more like the "Crimson Sky Pirate" actually

Knight Rider : The Flying Knight with Errol Flynn

"Knight of the Airways" would be more appropriate in the context. "SkyKnight" would be a mid-80s show with a robotic plane and it's pilot flying the skies of North America helping those in need. (Light Unionist sentiment as it would take place in many US nations not just Hollywood)

Airwolfwith Buster Crabbe]/quote]

"Wolf of the Airways" or "Skywolf" I'd say. I suspect Flash Gordon would go differently ITTL and Buck Rogers might be more popular as it takes place far into the future. The vehicle would be some sort of uber-VTOL/Sea-plane hybrid with lot of futuristic spark generators.

The Grapes of Wrath will be about the Mid-West Socialist Movement revealing the existence of Chinese Commissars assistance.

Neither Chinese nor Soviet "Commissars" would play well to the American audiences. The book would be very different from OTL and I think that the basic story would be more akin to having them family run out of Oklahoma by "bankers" and Texas and having the family find home and comfort in the People's Collective. It wouldn't do well in most Nations.

Airplane would be a Oscar winning comedy film taking place on a 'Spruce Goose'.

With heavy anti-Unionist comedy elements where it's built in the early 30s to "conquer the world" through intimidation but everyone finds it funny instead

Bette Page in Kitten With A Whip would be banned from theaters.

Didn't this happen OTL?

'Easy Flyer'-a low-cost film would sweep the box office with its frank portrayal of the smuggling trade. Starring James Dean and Sal Mineo.

And advertise and presage the ultra-light aircraft types of the 80s in the 60s? Anti-National message as the fly across the old-US and meet interesting and quirky characters of each nation. Sal gets blown away by a Dixie Air Militia redneck at the end of the film.

Norma Jean, first female Mafiosi, questioned by Rockefeller for racketeering at a Tammany Hall Sub-Committee hearing on organised crime.

She's a famous "astronaut" from Hollywood why would she be appearing before an ISA committee?

Beat nik groups instead of yuppies, very large nuclear plants that are safe and not built on fault lines, hybrid airplane cars just coming out, no rock and roll-extended Sinatra style music. Mafios more rooted.

Yes, no, I'd suspect more synthetic fuel ITTL, rock-and roll would be "rythmy-blues" and Jazzy-Blues much longer, and maybe as they'd be less powerful (probably less focused on alcohol as well) and have somewhat less influence overall.

Turbo-prop aircraft, some jets, early rocketry-no one in orbit yet. Big tanks, battle rifles, no assault weapons, NO AK's!!!

Yes because turboprops would have better "mileage" and jets while faster are harder and more expensive to maintain. Big tanks? Maybe as they have to get where their going by themselves. Probably a duo system where you have slow heavily armored platforms and fast, nimble ones in a mixed force. In the US horse cavalry is going to be a "thing" for quite a while. Not sure about no "assault" weapons as everyone was moving in that direction by the mid-20 with only formal inertia holding things back. (The BAR was designed for a much bigger clip but governments felt that soldiers would "waste" to many rounds if given automatic weapons) Sub-machine guns and man-portable machine guns would be prevelent but the majority of soldiers wold have semi-automatic battle rifles, and by the 70s clip fed auto and semi-auto rifles. (Think FN-FAL rather than AK though the Soviets would still field the latter if they exist)

Big planes, better, more futuristic Dirigibles, Spruce Geese, railroads still king, reduce size of Interstates.

NO INTERSTATES. They didn't exist prior to the 30s and railroads are cut at the national borders and even internally would be in constant danger of attack during any war. Smaller not bigger airplanes and no Spruce Goose (other than in a movie) because they require to much infrastructure and industry to produce and support. Think about it. Even if Hughes built the SG in Hollywood for "trade" to the Empire State he has to take it off and fly HIGH enough not to shot down over any other nation (and what nation is going to believe that thing isn't or can't be used as bomber?) Zeps carry less cargo sure but they are vulnerable to interception AND can't carry as many bombs if they ARE used for military purposes. Zeps are a "safer" alternative from a defense stand point so they would receive more good press and official support. Airplanes would be fast and sleek.

A League of American States for economic and transport purposes. Alcoholic 'Fizzies' cause liquor industry to fail and no more wet/dry states because it's too easily smuggled. *LSD breakthru with Psionics awakened randomly-hats have a liner which prevents psi usage/targeting*

To transport what exactly? At this point food and minerals can flow from state to state but there's really little incentive since they are constantly fighting to do so so less not more interstate transportation and more dependence on internal resources.

Alcohol is to easily MADE let along smuggled to be profitable. The only reason gangs go rich during prohibition is there was a massive and semi-effective enforcement of prohibition which shut down internal manufacture. Local and outside the US there was too many manufacturers to deal with and "stills" were a constant problem for enforcement. In CS manufacturers simply move to "wet" areas or already existing manufactures will supply demand and there will be local sources even in "dry" states. (As I noted before there will be a MAJOR alcohol production industry in the People's Collective. They will nominally use it mostly for fuel but be perfectly willing to 'sell' it to others to help them fall to the demon rum and allow the workers of their Nation to rise in revolt )

Drugs, well I'm not going ASB so I'll let that lie

A Red Napoleon threatening Europe, a resurgent China with the Manchu'(Fu Manchu Dynasty-Tien Lung,grandson) with eyes on the Pacific. Castro/Che 'free' South America.

"Europe will always be troubled" is how most American's would see them and not get involved. (We're better off obviously without them ) China is possible, (my TL will have some sort of warlord keeping both the Nationalists and Communists under his thumb and the Japanese out) but again it wont' effect America that much. Too far away to worry about? Maybe Frankly I don't see Casto/Che playing out as it's close enough that either Texas or Dixie will "step in" and you have the Empire State and ISA connections as well. I see them having to flee Cuba and raising cain in South America.

So maybe 1/3rd of the planes have jets, the rest turboprops, limited radar, no HUD because no microchip breakthrough, more political, civil rights, women's lib, have vs have not turmoil.

Government aircraft will probably be mostly jets with most militia being turboprops or high performance ICE engines. No HUD but something like it can still be done with tube technology and radar will be a "thing" TTL too as it's far to useful.

Socially the US is going to be somewhat "stuck" in the 30s longer but it's already NOT out 1930s so a lot of civil stress is going to be sorted out sooner than OTL.

Foo Fighters, UFO's, make appearances-villains or aliens?

Considering they have been around for most of human history... And who knows

A UFO version of the Predator would work.

Explain please?

Zepps will still be around-look at the hi-tech versions-resource haulage, more on station coastal and riverine/lake patrol and picket line missile defense. Commercially, no one gets airsick on a dirigible and aero cruise ships would do better than wet cruise ships-the Hindenburg did many Atlantic crossings.

Pretty much and there's less incentive outside the Pacific for long-haul aircraft. Radar Zeps are going to be a big thing once they can mount and power them correctly.

Too much modern day analogies. Heinlein's idea of individual corporate space exploration would fit better than NASA and with no Outer Space Treaty.....

Even he noted you have to have a pretty hefty nation-state (or corporation) to handle space travel and it would depend on if there's anything "out there" worth going for. A habitable Mars and Venus make space exploration a LOT more inviting.

The fascist states in Europe could have civil wars and succession crises, the socialist/communist could have purges that cripple them economically. You could have a peaceful Mid East if everyone there decides to shoot in one direction due to retro-active colonization attempts. Jerusalem could be renamed Shalomtown and all faiths welcome, even be a place that religious leaders try to solve/influence the League of Nations(still no UN).

Given the world-view of CS I'd expect EVERYONE is going to have internal issues and a lot of them along the line. Don't see the Middle East calming down ITTL. Don't see the LoN surviving much longer as they are going to be constantly ignored and side-lined.

No WWII and you don't lose 5% of the planetary population, no massive rebuilding-more people, more quality individuals to move nation states forward. I won't be perfect but better than 1945+ IOTL.

Too much of the pre-WWII build up of events is already in place to butterfly it away. SOMETHING is going to set the world on fire the circumstances are different enough I don't see OUR WWII but I see one just the same, even if the US doesn't get involved.

Railway advances, bullet trains? I would really try to streeeeetch the thirties outlook of the future. Again race relations, women's Lib and corporate vs labor will be the hot spots for the US(Untied States). More Euro investment in the Americas? We couldn't enforce the Monroe Doctrine.

Internally more advance trains are probably a given but only places like Hollywood would probably need the speeds of a bullet train. As noted above I see the "30s" stretching into the 60s or later because that's what the 50s really were but rapid changes both social and technological turned them into the 60s... Depending on how Europe and Asia come out of WWII they may actually have little interest in the America's until the late 80s or later. I think it might be that someone in South America might actually pull things together there before Castro/Che arrive and try to mess things up.

The Midwest was going socialist so I can see a Mao-West(hmmm...Fu Manchu marries Mae West-Dragon Lady of the Great Plains-daughter is Party Commissar of Omahan)

Don't forget this is a VERY different "socialism" than in Europe and Asia. There won't be a lot of incentive for regimes of a similar nature and unless Stalin or Mao are going to directly try and turn the system to "their' way of thinking (with all the logistics problems that entails) they are going to be pretty disgusted with the American idea of "communism" really quickly

[quoteNot just air, I can see Q-Ship piracy, >subrons< commerce raiding, smuggling galore.

What's a "subron"?

Russia would go after Alaska and anything from Canada they could grab.FFL in Quebec, Brits making deals left and right-Carribean alone...

The USSR already was trying to grab Alaska in the TL and not doing well. Unless they let down their guard on the the rest of Europe and Asia they cant really afford to get serious about the White Russians. Britain wouldn't like that and I suspect neither would any nation in the US even the PC, (Not that they could do much about it but you already have a "Flying Tigers" like call for volunteers to fight in Alaska it could springboard a broader sense of "we need to stick together or we'll hand separately" in both government and public minds. Which would feed back into re-unification maybe? Especially if WWII involved a more aggressive USSR)

Red Napoleons, Black Napoleons unifying Africa, and in the International Geophysical Year weird stuff from the poles, Luna, Tunguska, Pacific Co-Prosperity Sphere, Sino-Russian wars, Imperial Japanese coup and counter coup.

Most of that would get this thread moved to the ASB boards

Randy

 

[RanulfC]

Thanks for the shouts out and the commentary. I will try to address all of them as soon as possible, but in the course of the story, consider that NAFTA is like the EEC or EU, a loose confederation of nations which determines economic and in some cases political policies. The idea of the Jubilee Project and psychohistorians is to force a political federal union.

But you're having NAFTA act more like a cohesive US government than a alliance and the coups would make things worse. The EEC can't do what you want and the EU is a step to far I think. Either the nations are "unified" or they are not and if they are not then the stuff the NAFTA tries to pull it going to rip it apart. If they are then you have to lead into why things went that way against what appears to be a very heavy bias against it happening.

Psychohistory is like weather or economic forecasting, while it can't predict the future with 100% accuracy, it can provide a series of possible options and probabilities which can be charted. Think of game theory and how it is actually pretty good and providing options as to what is happening and the direction of things,....

I understand how it's supposed to work but the very idea was based on BILLIONS of people being able to be predictable, which I'd question as an assumption in the fist place (And remember the individual of the Mule brought the whole thing crashing down anyway)

Randy

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

But you're having NAFTA act more like a cohesive US government than a alliance and the coups would make things worse. The EEC can't do what you want and the EU is a step to far I think. Either the nations are "unified" or they are not and if they are not then the stuff the NAFTA tries to pull it going to rip it apart. If they are then you have to lead into why things went that way against what appears to be a very heavy bias.

Consider that NATO and the EEC was a mess of egos and political scandals. Consider that thanks to De Gaulle, the alliances nearly collapsed in the first 12 years. In the same way, the internal political wranglings of each nation manage to be both a strength and weakness with each nation contriving against each other over minor issues, but occasionally coming together for the interests of the hemisphere.

Also consider that Argentina, the Islamic Caliphate, Eurasian Union and African Union derve two purposes. First to fill on the vacuum created by the collapse of the North American and European systems, and second to demonstrate a political and societal order that doesn't revolve around Europe, America, India, China and Japan. As alluded to in the RPG, the situation in Europe is just as bad or worse in terms of socio-political collapse...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here are a few distinctly non-Western PODs to make sure that the empires and culture of the ATL doesn't sound too analogous with OTL:

1972: African Union (AU) President Diallo Telli is assassinated in Dakar, fueling tensions with European and American refugees across the continent,....

1981: African Union President (AU) Salim Ahmed Salim calls the economic embargo of South Africa and Libertatia, citing them as "neocolonialist regimes", during an address in Lagos,...

1984: World leaders gather in Penang, Malyasia in an effort to discuss the rise of nationalist and ethnic divisions taking place throughout the Co-Prosperity Sphere, and the threat it poses to the position of Japan in the Pacific Rim,...

1986: Islamic Caliphate officials warn of the Al-Muhajiroun (The Immigrants), disaffected Christian European immigrants, often unemployed in the Islamic Caliphate,....

1997: Abdul Qadeem Zallum warns of severe sectarian rifts within the Islamic Caliphate developing in Mecca, ...

1999: African Union (AU) forces launch an invasion of Libertatia, in an effort to drive out the pirate nation led by William S. Burroughs, laying siege to Anatarivo,....

1999: Carnival Against Capitalism led by Rob Thaxton tours across the globe in Tel Aviv, Minsk, Madrid, Valencia, Prague, Hamburg, Cologne, Milan, Rome, Siena, Florence, Ancona, Amsterdam, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lancaster, Zurich, Geneva, Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Austin, Texas, Boston, and Eugene, Oregon.

1999: Battle of Seattle; Anti-unification forces launch a pitched battle in Seattle, Washington, signaling unrest across the Pacific Northwest,....

2001: Battle of Gothenburg, Sweden; Government forces launch a brutal crackdown on protests in Gothenburg, Sweden....

2002: African Union forces proclaim the "liberation" of Anatarivo, pointing to alleged mass graves, and reports of "rape gangs",....

2003: Ata Khalil Abu-Rashta calls for "renewed revolutionary fervor", during television broadcasts from Mecca,.....

2004: World Social Forum led by Federico Mayor Zaragoza proclaims a "post-nation state era" in Mumbai, citing the failures of the European and North American states.

2005: Porto Alegre Manifesto is launched by Aminata Traoré, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Eduardo Galeano, José Saramago, François Houtart, Boaventura de Sousa Santos, Armand Mattelart, Roberto Savio, Riccardo Petrella, Ignacio Ramonet, Bernard Cassen, Samir Amin, Atilio Boron, Samuel Ruiz Garcia, Tariq Ali, Frei Betto, Emir Sader, Walden Bello, and Immanuel Wallerstein. in Porto Alegre, Brazil, calling for the creation of a "post-Western world",....

 

[M79]

Illinois, the State of Lincoln joins the Confederate States of America? That's pretty ASB. Indiana was also one of the first states to mobilize in the Midwest for the Civil War, were at Bull Run and Gettysburg, with over 25,000 killed throughout the state. If anything, another ASB state for the CSA.

Indiana was a quagmire under Oliver Morton during the ACW, he tried to take over Kentucky's government and arrested lots of people for suspicions of loyalty. In those days Indiana had a *lot* of Southern sympathizers south of Indianapolis, where the bulk of the population lived. Morton began working to arm the state very early in the conflict and perhaps even before it, he suppressed his own state legislature, and essentially ruled as a dictator for a few years. Many in the state would join an independent South rather than the Northeast or (Communist) Midwest of this scenario. Illinois actually had a secessionist movement in the Southern part of the state, and again given the choice they are more likely to head South especially if Missouri is part of the South also. Then again, Illinois has always been a question of Chicago vs everyone else for much of the last 150 years, in this case Chicago is a Berlin equivalent and the downtown areas are occupied accordingly.

 

[M79]

Did, mostly because as I noted in a general state of War in NA I don't see Columbia being long for this world. It just has too little going for it as a "nation". I rapidly see it becoming a "protectorate/free-city" beholden to it's neighboring nations.

Whoever controls Washington DC would have considerable reason to claim legitimacy as the 'inheritor' of the United States. An Empire State as shown above would be a very powerful nation to contend with and the Dixie folks would also want to lay claim to the city, especially for defensive purposes. I thought about giving Delmarva to the Empire State and Maryland to Dixie but ultimately the prize is Washington itself. So it is a convenient buffer state and place to negotiate treaties, among other things.

Depends I suppose if you consider the video games at all "canon" which in my case I do without over-the-top super-science. The main reason is I can't see things proceeding per OTL given the circumstances and Hitler needs to go plain and simple.
My POD(s) is this (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=213412) happens earlier, and France doesn't go "defensive" with the Maginot Line which lost it the confidence of most of Europe that it was going to be "proactive" versus renewed German expansion. With the Nazi hard-liners suppressed, (hence why a splinter group tried to take over the ISA as a new base of operations) there's more of a chance of a united front towards the USSR. (Which in CS is noted as "the most highly regarded in the World" and therefor a HUGE danger to the West, more so that OTL)

I left out the super-science, but the sheer numbers of German immigrants and their descendants would favor the ability of a German government to influence the ISA. There would be more in the Collective but the Communist government will probably be more effective at keeping them quiet. I still had Nazis rising in the CS world, it just takes longer.

Yes but they are going to be more wary of the support of the European powers because of the heavy isolationism inherent in the background. Despite Dixie, Louisiana, and the ISA's closer ties to European powers even without a failed coup in the ISA there's going to be a lot of home grown worry over fighting proxy wars for "kings-and-princes" of Europe. If you add in the failed coup...

I figured the new governments on the American continent will start to coalesce for economic purposes and they have already begun to make treaties abroad. With the UK making friends in Dixie and France also making inroads (they are also influential in the Empire State in my original timeline), I thought it made sense to have Germany friendly with the ISA.

Given the idea of a NA war I don't see Lockheed having the resources or time to devote to development. That had enough trouble OTL and still didn't get it developed "on-time". Further the L-1000 while innovative wasn't as efficient or powerful as other engines which is why it was a developmental dead end. Dixie MIGHT get Jets from the Brits but they are going to be lower priority than the Dominions. There's a LOT less incentive for any European power to invest in any NA nation because we just are not able to be anyone's bastion or arsenal. Granted I can see various NA Nations taking advantage of a general world war to begin fighting for territory gains as possible but no one is going to get any support from outside and have any support they are currently getting drastically cut in the mean time. I don't see the incentive for the ISA to get greedy under the circumstances.

Lockheed only needed funding to get the engine research off the drawing board, Nathan Price is still in California as would be Doble Steam Motors as would be Lockheed (and Hughes). The proposed aircraft was to attain a top speed of 600 MPH, and in this timeframe even 350 MPH would b a significant advantage. Lockheed also had an airframe design for the engine (L-133) which gave their people experience in designing jet airframes before the P-59 or P-80. Per the engineers I spoke with, the F-94 Starfire was supposed to be the version of the P-80 that Lockheed *wanted* to get into service with the P-80 as an advanced prototype to get the bugs out, unfortunately things did not happen that way.

Frankly by this point (1937) I fully expect Texans to believe it was all the REST of the Souths (Dixie) fault THEY lost the first civil war and they are not about to let anything less than Texas lead a "new" south. They may not like the PC but they would gladly help them hold off Dixie in exchange for "future" negotiations on territory or trade.

Texas in this timeline is crazy, but they are not stupid. Appalachia is a logical focus for Dixie as is Louisiana and the Outer Banks are already a protectorate under their control. Ultimately I have the government centralize a little bit more than in the books, but only just enough to coordinate logistics and field a fighting force. They like a very 'hands-off' government and it would have been largely that.

Deseret has a larger world-view even this early and it's got some income and population still incoming from missionaries which while low at the time were still prevalent world wide. While Pacifica/Cascadia wants to be left alone in truth they have far to much resources and too little population/industrialization to resist for long and you'd have both Hollywood and Canada (and more specifically Britain) looking to access those resources during and after the war. Even if Canada broke up as in the CS-TL the north west terrorizes have a very strong pro-British population and Britain will do what ever they need to keep those territories within their sphere of influence if not a Dominion.

Deseret will still be trying to settle and develop its own territories for a while, but yes there would have been an eventual war over what is now Idaho and Wyoming. Unfortunately Wyoming was only driven farther into the Cascadia camp because of this, the woodsmen there and in northern Idaho developed guerilla tactics later copied by the Viet Cong among others. Deseret eventually slowed its expansions, but was still expanding slowly into Cascadia Territory until the later 50s when threats of war on two fronts loomed.

In your CSU I can see them lasting a lot longer than in mine but the end result would be post-war their neighbors are going to simply move in and take the resources and there's little they could do to stop them as long as the neighbors avoided pissing off the Lakota nations which should be doable.

The Lakota join the Cascadians as an autonomous nation because they realize their resources are limited and their nation was being looked at like a juicy steak. Given the choice between very little government and a theocracy they don't like, they sided with Cascadia.

So you have WWII going much the same, just without the US as an outside participant? Like I noted above I don't see the prelude being the same so the combatants are not as likely in the same configurations. (Heck toss in a Communist coup in France and things would REALLY be different )

Again, I still had Nazis coming to power in my CS timeline, and it's not an exact analog WWII. The P-38 does appear on time though, it becomes a game-changer in North America and elsewhere.

That also ignore Vichy France and German support (ISA in this case) thereof. More so if the ISA can use the rivers as a method of getting supplies to Germany. (And if Germany is still the aggressor in your CSU then they have even more "incentive" to push more Vichy forces into Louisiana to get them "free" of both the FF and Allied forces. (Not that I think the Brits would let them get away with it but imagine the BB Richelieu and escorts in New Orleans rather than France and getting torpedoed by Dixie/Brit aircraft )

There was a French fleet stationed at New Orleans following the fall of Paris and later Marseilles, and it played a part of its own. As did the Surcouf.

The more I think about it the more I can see France falling to an internal Communist coup freaking the HECK out of both Britain and Germany and seeing Churchill being ousted to clear the way for a German/British allied pact against world wide Communism

Perhaps your timing is off just a little bit from mine

And yes, Trotsky played a role in the inter-war world of my scenario.

 

[terranova210486]

What would OTL celebrities like Selena Gomez and Beyoncé be doing in this setting?

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here are a few PODs to show that the rest of the world moved on without Europe and America:

1961: Treaty of Belgrade; World leaders led by Josip Tito, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Jawaharlal Nehru, Kwame Nkrumah and Jiang Zemin, calling for the recognition of the "post-colonial/post-Western world" in Belgrade, Serbia,...

1969: G-7 is formed in Algiers, formed by the intial African Union (AU), Brazil, Argentina, Persian Empire, Japan, et. Al, angering many European and American leaders for being left out of the influential body,...

1970: Treaty of Belgrade members force the League of Nations to take a more "pro-active stance" with military intervention of League of Nations troops in "conflict outbreak areas", with a conference in Lusaka,...

1970: G-7, nations announce the formation of the World Bank in Kinshasa, promising a "new life for a new world..."

1974: New International Economic Order (NIEO) is proclaimed by the League of Nations in Geneva, calling for socio-economic reforms aimed at helping the Southern Hemisphere, backed mainly by the Treaty of Belgrade nation member-states.

1978: New World Information and Communication Order is proclaimed by the League of Nations in Geneva, calling for greater sharing of technology across the globe, aiding former European and American governments with an influx of cash,...

1979: Havana Declaration ; Treaty of Belgrade officials announce support for "national independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity and security against neo-colonialism, imperialism, racism,..." in Havana, Cuba,...

2009: Treaty of Belgrade members clash with NAFTA, demanding recognition of Puerto Rican independence, fueling tensions with ALBA, in the World Social Forum in Cochabamba, Brazil,...

2010: Cardinal Jaime Sin sponsors the World Parliament of Religions in Manila, Philippines helping to promote interfaith dialogues,...

2012: B'nai Brith guerrillas warns that the Persian Empire, Islamic Caliphate
Caliphate, and Eurasian Union have all begun anti-Semitic policies,

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

What would OTL celebrities like Selena Gomez and Beyoncé be doing in this setting?

With Justin Bieber being from Canada, and espousing right-wing views on occasion, and Selena Gomez being Mexican-American, they are "Celebrity Ambassadors" for the unity of the North American Parliament in Washington D.C.,...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here are a few PODs to show that Europe and America are no longer in the driver's seat:

1975: New York City, New York, amidst default in its municipal bonds announces its bankruptcy, triggering a massive wave of crime and corruption,...

1976: World Bank finances the dictatorship in Texas and Dixie, financing the oil and natural gas industry, for those countries,...

1986: Alpha y Omega Corporation announces the corporate management takeover of Detroit, Michigan, triggering protests by labor unions and police officers citywide,...

1989: World Bank supports the Russian-backed military regime in Alayeska,...

1990: European Network for Debt and Development (Eurodad) is established by the G-7 and World Bank in an effort to stabilize Europe politically and economically, in Brussels, attracting popular political backlash,...

1994: Jacques Parizeau is elected based on a populist economic platform of opposition to the World Bank, in Montreal,...

1995: Versailles Appeal; Albert Jacquard calls upon the G-7 to end its crippling financial policies, during rallies in Paris,...

1997: Quebecois President Jacques Parizeau is overthrown in a military coup by General Mario Dumont. In Montreal, Quebec,...

1999: Jubilee 2000 Coalition launches mass demonstrations against the G-7 and World Bank in London, England, fueling political unrest,...

2005: World Bank contributes to the military regimes in Dixie, Texas, Panama, and Mexico, angering many in the North American Parliament...

2007: Mexico suffers an economic meltdown; Argentina and Brazil send troops into the region citing the massive economic debt incurred in Mexico City; known as the "Lost Decade" in North America,...

2010: Eurodad and World Bank officials launch the Task Force on Financial Integrity & Economic Development, citing rampant political and economic corruption across Europe, during a press conference in Brussels,...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here are some PODs to show that the economic problems are going to be pretty intense for Japan, Europe and America:

1981: Kim Il-Myeon launches an armed insurrection against Japan at Choson, fueling tensions across the Pacific Rim,....

1992: Korean leader Roh Tae Woo demands an apology and mass reparations for slavery from Japan, followed by Chinese and Filipino delegations,...

1992: Lila Filipina (League of Free Filipino Women) demands an apology and war reparations from Japan, with massive rallies in Manila,...

1999: African World Reparations and the Repatriation Truth Commission conclude that the former United States and Western Europe owes the African Union c.$777 trillion over a 5 year period, citing 400 years of slavery and apartheid,....

2001: Chinese ambassador Shi Wen Long demands formal reparations from Japan citing the mass genocide and slavery,....

2004: Lloyds of London is successfully sued by the African Union, through the Hague, fueling ethnic tensions in Western Europe,...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here is the third draft of the ATL:

1939: The Industrial States of America uses German tech/engineering to run rampant across much of the continent, reaching as far as the Lake Champlain, Memphis, Omaha, Winnepeg, and Knoxville. Jet technology is developed around this time starting in California and Germany as Heinkel and Lockheed both fly secretly their first production models.

1942: Soviet mathematician Isaak Yudovich Ozimov develops his "theory of psychohistory" which details the sociopolitical nature of nation-state collapses in a predictable fashion. His work is immediately seized by Soviet authorities as a possible asset,...

1941: Texas stays largely out of the global conflict, concentrating on then-neutral Mexico and taking over Sonora and Chihuahua giving it ports on both the Caribbean and Pacific. Japan takes over Hawaii, the Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Thailand, French Indochina, and by war's end has secured much of China. Japan is careful *not* to declare war on the UK or Australia, instead opting to focus on synthetic fuels and providing the German scientific community a safe place to further develop technologies (which they steal as a form of 'protection money').

1942: Pope Pius XII calls for a "anti-Communist" crusade in Rome, Italy, signaling the dangers posed to Christendom by the ISA and the Soviet Union,...

1944: ISA/German jets (ME-262 with much better engines) encounter Dixie/British/Lockheed models (F-94 Starfire analogs and jet-enhanced P-38s) is thus impressive as neither side expected the other to be close to their own in those fields, much less a close match

1945: By the end of this ATL WWII, Dixie absorbs Appalachia and the Outer Banks Protectorate while the Empire State absorbs the Atlantic Union and at the end of the war the Maritime Provinces (the latter only because of a secret deal with Dixie to recognize its new borders and the UK to recognize Ontarian borders). Cascadia/Pacifica absorbs most of the Disputed Western Territories with Lakota becoming a 'special status area' with a *lot* of autonomy but as a part of that nation. Arixo and the Navajo State are split at the OTL division of Arizona (going to Hollywood along with western Nevada) and New Mexico (going to the Republic of Texas, who also grabs southeastern Colorado and southernmost Kansas). Deseret takes southern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, eastern Nevada, and western Colorado while the People's Collective grabs eastern Wyoming and eastern Colorado, Denver becomes a 'free city' and Western place to negotiate peace settlements, mingle with other ambassadors, and spy on everyone. This is also to become the banking center of North America because its territory is too small to do much else and the revenues are enough to make the city among the richest in the world. French Louisiana is made to join Dixie as well, provoking the wrath of the Republic of Texas who wanted to have New Orleans and the tolls on the river for themselves. Texas does nothing about this, however, as they are dependent on the oil trade for their prosperity. They also sell to both sides while buying/trading tech with both sides, their Texas Instruments Model 105 jet (Avro C105 analog) is arguably among the most advanced jets in the world when it debuts....

1946: Admiral Robert A. Heinlein, Republic of California, announces that he has "reverse-calculated" the "theory of psychohistory", shaking up the political and mathematical world,...

1946: Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel establishes the "Kingdom of Vice" in Las Vegas, Nevada, sparking controversy throughout the North American continent...

1948: Britain detonates the worlds atomic weapon in near Diego Garcia

1950: France follows second with the detonation of its own nuclear weapon in Algeria,...

1951: Argentina under President Juan Peron announces the detonation of a nuclear weapon at San Carlos de Bariloche, Argentina, near the Chilean border triggering fears of war in North America,...

1952: Pope Pius XIII announces a call for a second "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Rome, Italy, targeting the ISA and the Russian successor states,...

1953: Moshen Pezeshkpour comes to power in Tehran, calling for a New Persian Empire, with Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as its head,...

1953: Psychohistorian Ward Moore secretly begins the "Project JUBILEE" in an effort to renify the North American continent, from New York City, New York,...

1954: John Calvin King I, launches an armed insurrection in Dixie, proclaiming "by any means necessary" the need to overthrow the apartheid regime,....

1954: Crooners Coup led by Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., et al. seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada)

1955: Battle of Constantinople; Christian militias launch a brutal siege of Constantinople after Turkish forces launch a purge of ethnic Jewish and Greek populations,.....

1958: "Pirate Radio" begin transmitting in portions of Germany, Denmark, Ireland and Great Britain, quickly becoming an international phenomenon,....

1959: Rocketry becomes a fascination of the North Americans but the defeated Germans still hold the commanding lead, it is a surprise to the British when the Russians put a satellite in orbit only two years after they do so...

1960- The Magnificent Seven documentary made about a mercenary aero squadron defending a island in the Carribean.(that's not a bad scenario idea)

1961: Elijah Muhammad, leader of the Nation of Islam (NOI), and George Lincoln Rockwell, North American Fascist Party (NAFP) announce a summit in New York City, New York,....

1961: Robert F. Williams launches Radio Free Dixie in Monroe, North Carolina, calling upon African-Americans to launch an armed insurrection in Dixie, triggering fears of a race war across the continent,.....

1961: Celtic League is formed by Hugh McDiarmid in Dublin, calling for the creation of Pan-Celtic Empire, uniting Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, Isle of Man, and Scotland,...

1961: Mahmoud Harbi launches the call for a Greater Somalia, during an ultranationalist rally in Mogadishu,

1961: An even greater surprise was the cooperation of Hollywood, Dixie, and the Empire State in the Star Alliance space program launching their first satellite via a two-stage system using seven Aerojet X-8s as a first stage and one as a second stage.Their first man in space (reportedly decided by a drinking contest of all things!) would be David McCampbell flying his 'Progress' capsule from Cape Canaveral to near Britain.

1961: Treaty of Belgrade; World leaders led by Josip Tito, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Jawaharlal Nehru, Kwame Nkrumah and Jiang Zemin, calling for the recognition of the "post-colonial/post-Western world" in Belgrade, Serbia,...

1962: North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) , launched by President John F. Kennedy of the New England Confederation, serves to establish a a military and political alliance to provide relative peace in the Western Hemisphere,....

1962: North America gets the first man into space, fueling the start of the "Space Race",....

1962: Philip K. Dick begins launching nationalist rallies calling for the expulsion of all foreign troops from the North American continent, starting in San Francisco, California,...

1963: Treaty of Lagos; African Union (AU) is formed in Lagos, Nigeria, serving as the political union of the continent severing all ties with European colonialist leaders,....

1964-Hughes-Goddard announced the successful launch of a orbital craft. Piloted by Charles "Chuck"Yeager and test subject Norma Jean (femme fatale and reputedly Einstein's mistress) the 'Atalanta' conducted tests for future flights and took extensive photographs of the Earth. Rival companies have announced they will follow suit after H-G has shown the way.

1965: Treaty of Helsinki; Nordic leaders led by Hans Hedtoft, call for the creation of a Greater Scandinavia,...

1965: Ralph Nader overthrows the ISA government in Detroit, with his force of "Nader's Raiders" serving as his revolutionary guard,...

1966: Treaty of Europa is criticized as being "the Dictator's Club", citing a lack of commitment towards human rights or economic reforms,....

1966-Europa Treaty(no NATO) begins to unravel: France and Spain quit due to economic/political/ego reasons, Greece and Turkey's 'altercations' erupt into full scale war. Germany's Civil War ends with Imperial Restorationists defeating the last remnants of Nazism at their so-called National Redoubt. Internal strife continues as a Imperial administration takes hold.

1966-Clint Eastwood increases the popularity of 'Ramen-Westerns' from Chinese Cinema started with A Fistful of Yuan, For a Few Yuan More and culminating in the epic The Good, The Bad and The Long Nosed Round Eye.

1967-Mid East Coalition Six-Day Summit which establishes economic, political and religious ties for the region. Consensus that it would be better to sell arms, oil and goods to the rest of the world together than tear each other apart. Also establishes a lucrative global corporate merc system.(that way there can be a 'Texas-Israeli War'.)

1967: Argentinean, African Union, and Chinese forces begin transporting drugs en masse into North America, Europe, et al., under a policy of neo-mercantilism,...

1967: Principality of Sealand established by Paddy Roy Bates, becomes the first nation-state formed from an artificial territory (an abandoned oil rig), off the coast of Great Britain,....

1968: Sino-Russian War erupts between Russian and Chinese states over the Western Siberian and Manchurian territories,....

1968: Pope Paul VI calls for a renewed call for the "liberation of the Holy Land", recruiting Christian militia and mercenary forces across the globe,....

1968-Pope Paul VI increases the monastic/convent orders, re-instates military orders and forms a Papal Airforce.(very strict flying nuns..)

1969-1989: Pax California; California Governors Richard M. Nixon and Ronald Reagan seize control of the NAFTA Parliament, proclaiming a series of political and economic reforms aimed at furthering the cause of reunification,....

1969: Reverend Charles Manson, Family Ministries, launches a series of murders and bombings in Los Angeles, California aimed at triggering a "racial holy war"

1969: Elvis Presley seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada) proclaiming a "new era in music and culture",...

1969: G-7 is formed in Algiers, formed by the intial African Union (AU), Brazil, Argentina, Persian Empire, Japan, et. Al, angering many European and American leaders for being left out of the influential body,...

1969-1971: American Indian Movement (AIM) guerrilla forces seize control of Alcatraz Island, proclaiming an independent state,...

1970: American Indian Movement (AIM) led by Iron-Wielder, Leonard Peltier, and Russell Means, launch an armed insurrection in North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, and Montana,...

1970: Treaty of Belgrade members force the League of Nations to take a more "pro-active stance" with military intervention of League of Nations troops in "conflict outbreak areas", with a conference in Lusaka,...

1970: G-7, nations announce the formation of the World Bank in Kinshasa, promising a "new life for a new world..."

1972: African Union (AU) President Diallo Telli is assassinated in Dakar, fueling tensions with European and American refugees across the continent,....

1974-Warsaw Pact cascading revolt against troops used in Chinese theater.

1974: New International Economic Order (NIEO) is proclaimed by the League of Nations in Geneva, calling for socio-economic reforms aimed at helping the Southern Hemisphere, backed mainly by the Treaty of Belgrade nation member-states.

1975: Ernest Callenbach,leader of Ecotopia Rising, launch an environmental revolution in Pacifica, spreading across the Pacific Northwest,....

1975: New York City, New York, amidst default in its municipal bonds announces its bankruptcy, triggering a massive wave of crime and corruption,...

1976: Biological weapons are unleashed, ending the Sino-Russian War, but triggering a massive humanitarian crisis as the few remaining systems that maintained the illusion of state stability suddenly collapse on both sides of the conflict,....

1976: Reverend Jerry Falwell launches his "America United " rallies starting in Lynchburg, Virginia,calling for a "moral and Christian nation"...

1976: World Bank finances the dictatorship in Texas and Dixie, financing the oil and natural gas industry, for those countries,...

1977: Elvis Presley dies, causing a major succession crisis, Queen Ann-Margret launches a series of brutal executions in an effort to maintain power in the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada),...

1977: African-American gang leader Cornelius "King" Young is assassinated allegedly by police, after uniting the various gangs under his banner in New York City, New York,...

1978: First pirate television broadcasts are launched in Syracuse, New York in an effort to promote resistance across North America,....

1978: Race riots erupt in the theocracy of Deseret , fueled by calls for greater civil rights in Provo and Salt Lake City,...

1978: New World Information and Communication Order is proclaimed by the League of Nations in Geneva, calling for greater sharing of technology across the globe, aiding former European and American governments with an influx of cash,...

1979: Juhayman al-Otaybi is proclaimed Mahdi in Mecca, proclaiming the Caliphate in Mecca, claiming control over most of the Middle East and North Africa,....

1979: Order of Prometheus is established by L. Neil Smith as a ultra-nationalist effort to reunify the former United States of America in Denver, Colorado,...

1979: Havana Declaration ; Treaty of Belgrade officials announce support for "national independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity and security against neo-colonialism, imperialism, racism,..." in Havana, Cuba,...

1980: America United members launch a purge of North American Parliament members of "foreign agents" in Washington D.C.,..

1980-1981: Somalia threatens to annex Ethiopia, triggering the Treaty of Lagos member-states to deploy troops to contain the crisis,...

1981: Manhattan Island is completely submerged after years of flooding since c.1945, but residents refuse to leave, transforming the city into a modern-day Venice,....

1981: American and European dissidents led by William S. Burroughs seize control of Madagascar, establishing the "Independent Republic of Libertatia",....

1981: African Union President (AU) Salim Ahmed Salim calls the economic embargo of South Africa and Libertatia, citing them as "neocolonialist regimes", during an address in Lagos,...

1981: Kim Il-Myeon launches an armed insurrection against Japan at Choson, fueling tensions across the Pacific Rim,....

1983: "Screaming Lord" David Edward Sutch seizes control of the English government in a political coup in London, England,....

1984: Pope John Paul II launches a call for a third "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Gdansk, Poland, signaling that "We are blessed by the Virgin Mary",...

1984: Reverend Jerry Falwell proclaims Ronald Reagan a "Christian leader" during a rally in Lynchburg, Virginia, fueling the nationalist movement,...

1984: World leaders gather in Penang, Malyasia in an effort to discuss the rise of nationalist and ethnic divisions taking place throughout the Co-Prosperity Sphere, and the threat it poses to the position of Japan in the Pacific Rim,...

1985: EuroAid; African leaders launch humanitarian aid relief and efforts towards the African continent, starting in London, England, although they are hampered by the Islamic Caliphate,....

1985: Church of Elvis Presley is established in Memphis, Tennessee and the "Republic of Vice"(Las Vegas, Nevada),...

1985: Robert Zemeckis begins marketing commercial hoverboards , becoming a major fashion and sports craze in Hill Valley, California,...

1986: Dixie declares a "State of Emergency" citing growing opposition to the apartheid regime by African-American guerrillas and calls to release John Calvin King I from prison,.....

1986: Islamic Caliphate officials warn of the Al-Muhajiroun (The Immigrants), disaffected Christian European immigrants, often unemployed in the Islamic Caliphate,....

1986: Alpha y Omega Corporation announces the corporate management takeover of Detroit, Michigan, triggering protests by labor unions and police officers citywide,...

1986-1992: Collapse of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere due to armed insurrections and revolutions throughout East Asia from the Philippines to Manchukuo, triggering a refugee crisis across the region,....

1989: Reverend Pat Robertson takes control of the "America United" movement in Atlanta, Georgia, proclaiming a Christian theocracy,...

1989: World Bank supports the Russian-backed military regime in Alayeska,...

1990: European Network for Debt and Development (Eurodad) is established by the G-7 and World Bank in an effort to stabilize Europe politically and economically, in Brussels, attracting popular political backlash,...

1991: NAFTA forces launch an invasion of Texas, after it threatens to seize oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, Coalition forces led by New England Confederation President George H.W. Bush overthrow the regime led by H. Ross Perot,....

1991: Siege of Shalomtown; Islamic Caliphate forces launch a siege of the interfaith community in Shalomtown, amidst international indifference to the issue,...

1992: Siege of Los Angeles, General Darryl Gates launches a siege of the city, imposing martial law, claiming that he is attempting to root out corruption, ...

1992: Korean leader Roh Tae Woo demands an apology and mass reparations for slavery from Japan, followed by Chinese and Filipino delegations,...

1992: Lila Filipina (League of Free Filipino Women) demands an apology and war reparations from Japan, with massive rallies in Manila,...

1994: Reconquista Mexico (a.k.a. Second Mexican-American War) Carlos Truxillo and Jose Angel Gutierrez lead a war of reconquest against the former United States, in an attempt to reconquer California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Utah and Colorado,....

1994: Vladimir Zhirinovsky launches an ultra-nationalist revolution in Moscow, calling for the unification of the Eurasian continent under his rule, as a means to counter the threat to the Caliphate,....

1994: Crime lords Tupac Shakur and Notorious B.I.G. , take advantage of the Second Mexican-American War, uniting their resources on the East and West coasts of the North American continent,...

1994: Psychohistorian Harry Turtledove emerges as one of the leaders of the field, creating "analogue system equations " which serve to predict events with uncanny accuracy, in Los Angeles, California,...

1994: Jacques Parizeau is elected based on a populist economic platform of opposition to the World Bank, in Montreal,...

1995: Psychohistorian Robert Conroy, utilising the same programs of Harry Turtledove , calls for basic reforms in the former Industrial States of America,...

1995: "Sliders" movement is launched by Tracy Torme and Robert K. Weiss, proclaiming "technological interconnection " justifying political reunification of the North American continent, with rallies starting in San Francisco, California,...

1995: Versailles Appeal; Albert Jacquard calls upon the G-7 to end its crippling financial policies, during rallies in Paris,...

1996: Neo-Swing Music Renaissance; Groups such as the Squirrel Nut Zippers, Michael Buble, Connie Champagne, Lavay Smith & the Hot-Skillet Lickers, Pink Martini, the Brian Setzer Orchestra, serve to revive the music scene

1996: Japanese officials launch policy of "Hikkomori" (extreme isolationism) sealing themselves from the rest of the world after the collapse of the Co-Prosperity Sphere,...

1997: African Union President Kofi Annan calls for the development of human rights, citing the rise of the Islamic Caliphate, the rising number of European refugees, and the threat of the Eurasian Union,....

1997: Church of the Militant Elvis is launched in Memphis, Tennessee, with adherents in the "Kingdom of Vice" (Las Vegas, Nevada), proclaiming Presley a "holy prophet",...

1997: Abdul Qadeem Zallum warns of severe sectarian rifts within the Islamic Caliphate developing in Mecca, ...

1997: Quebecois President Jacques Parizeau is overthrown in a military coup by General Mario Dumont. In Montreal, Quebec,...

1998: With the death of Queen Ann-Margaret, a war of succession occurs in the "Kingdom of Vice" , with many musicians and entertainers attempting to seize control of the city-state including Celine Dion, Britney Spears, et. Al,....

1998: Osama bin Laden comes to power in the Islamic Caliphate, proclaiming himself as the Mahdi in Mecca, threatening war against the West,....

1999: African Union (AU) forces launch an invasion of Libertatia, in an effort to drive out the pirate nation led by William S. Burroughs, laying siege to Anatarivo,....

1999: Carnival Against Capitalism led by Rob Thaxton tours across the globe in Tel Aviv, Minsk, Madrid, Valencia, Prague, Hamburg, Cologne, Milan, Rome, Siena, Florence, Ancona, Amsterdam, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lancaster, Zurich, Geneva, Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Austin, Texas, Boston, and Eugene, Oregon.

1999: Battle of Seattle; Anti-unification forces launch a pitched battle in Seattle, Washington, signaling unrest across the Pacific Northwest,....

1999: Jubilee 2000 Coalition launches mass demonstrations against the G-7 and World Bank in London, England, fueling political unrest,...

1999: African World Reparations and the Repatriation Truth Commission conclude that the former United States and Western Europe owes the African Union c.$777 trillion over a 5 year period, citing 400 years of slavery and apartheid,....

2001: World Social Forum (WSF) is established in Porto Alegre, Brazil, citing the ineffective nature of the League of Nations and its Eurocentric and racist nature,....

2001: Battle of Gothenburg, Sweden; Government forces launch a brutal crackdown on protests in Gothenburg, Sweden....

2001: Chinese ambassador Shi Wen Long demands formal reparations from Japan citing the mass genocide and slavery,....

2002: Treaty of Durban; with the surrender of Afrikaaner troops in Durban, the African Union effectively has unified Sub-Saharan Africa into a political super power,...

2002: Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, launch the "ARK Intiative" to evacuate Earth, citing the growing anti-intellectualism, environmental destruction, and the political anarchy (Think Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow)

2002: African Union forces proclaim the "liberation" of Anatarivo, pointing to alleged mass graves, and reports of "rape gangs",....

2003: Coalition forces launch a second attack into Texas, after the threat of an embargo against NAFTA states, trigger civil unrest and panic across much of the North American continent,....

2003: Tom Kratman , New England Confederation, calls for national reunification citing his outrage over the growing wave of "cultural socialism ",...

2003: Ata Khalil Abu-Rashta calls for "renewed revolutionary fervor", during television broadcasts from Mecca,.....

2004: Alianza Bolivariana para los Pueblos de Nuestra América (ALBA) is formed in Buenos Aires, Argentina, calling for the quarantine of the NAFTA nations, as "a threat to world security and peace",....

2004: French Prime Minister Jean Mare Le Pen warns of the threat posed by the threat of Eurasian Union under Vladimir Zhirinovsky,....

2004: World Social Forum led by Federico Mayor Zaragoza proclaims a "post-nation state era" in Mumbai, citing the failures of the European and North American states.

2004: Islamic militias launch a massive offensive in an effort to seize Bosnia-Hercegovina, after taking control of Kosovo,...

2004: John Birmingham comes to power as Prime Minister in London, England, proclaiming a "New European Axis", calling for a European alliance,...

2004: Lloyds of London is successfully sued by the African Union, through the Hague, fueling ethnic tensions in Western Europe,...

2005: James McMillan comes to power as mayor in New York. City, New York, based on an economic populist platform,...

2005: Porto Alegre Manifesto is launched by Aminata Traoré, Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Eduardo Galeano, José Saramago, François Houtart, Boaventura de Sousa Santos, Armand Mattelart, Roberto Savio, Riccardo Petrella, Ignacio Ramonet, Bernard Cassen, Samir Amin, Atilio Boron, Samuel Ruiz Garcia, Tariq Ali, Frei Betto, Emir Sader, Walden Bello, and Immanuel Wallerstein. in Porto Alegre, Brazil, calling for the creation of a "post-Western world",....

2005: World Bank contributes to the military regimes in Dixie, Texas, Panama, and Mexico, angering many in the North American Parliament...

2007: Mexico suffers an economic meltdown; Argentina and Brazil send troops into the region citing the massive economic debt incurred in Mexico City; known as the "Lost Decade" in North America,...

2008: Eurasian Union State Psychohistorian Igor Panarin predicts that the North American continent will be vulnerable to attack by 2010, citing the growing civil unrest and panic in the region,....

2008: Tom Kratman, New England Confederation, launches calls for "volunteer militias " to fight against the Islamic Caliphate,....

2008: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams, Alex Kurtzman, and Robert Orci launch a series of terrorist events aimed at forcing political reunification of the North American continent, threatening to escalate into war,...

2009: Technological leader and CEO Ryuho Okawa seizes power in a corporate "hostile takeover " of the government, backed by zaibatsu power, becoming the head of state, promising "technological wonders "...

2009: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof proclaim the success of the "United Nations of America" campaign, as NAFTA is used to further federalize the continent,...

2009: Followed by domestic scandal, technological collapse and massive austerity measures, French Premier Stephen M. Stirling calls for war against the Islamic Caliphate,...

2009: Treaty of Belgrade members clash with NAFTA, demanding recognition of Puerto Rican independence, fueling tensions with ALBA, in the World Social Forum in Cochabamba, Brazil,...

2010: Eurasian Union military forces and officials launch Operation MORSKOY LEV, in an effort to conquer the North American continent, claiming that the region represents "the greatest threat to world peace"....

2010: Pope Benedict XVI launches the call for a fourth "anti-Communist crusade" citing the growing threat of the Eurasian Union under Vladimir Zhirinovsky,....

2010: Cardinal Jaime Sin sponsors the World Parliament of Religions in Manila, Philippines helping to promote interfaith dialogues,...

2010: Eurodad and World Bank officials launch the Task Force on Financial Integrity & Economic Development, citing rampant political and economic corruption across Europe, during a press conference in Brussels,...

2011: 15 years of extreme isolation by Japan, rumors of strange developments in robotics and cybernetics are rumored to have taken place in the midst of the national collapse,....

2012: B'nai Brith guerrillas warns that the Persian Empire, Islamic Caliphate, and Eurasian Union have all begun anti-Semitic policies,

2014: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is named the new Mahdi of the Caliphate, after the sudden and suspicious death of Juhayman al-Otaybi, renewing the war in the region,....

2015: Entrepreneur Donald Trump of New York City, New York launches the "America United (AU)" campaign, calling for the political unification of the North American continent,....

Details:

ChiPS: HAPs
California Highway Patrol with Ponch and John will be the (Nation of) Hollywood Air Police with Burt Lancaster and Nick Cravat

Knight Rider : The Flying Knight with Errol Flynn

Airwolfwith Buster Crabbe

The Grapes of Wrath will be about the Mid-West Socialist Movement revealing the existence of Chinese Commissars assistance.

Airplane would be a Oscar winning comedy film taking place on a 'Spruce Goose'.

Bette Page in Kitten With A Whip would be banned from theaters.

'Easy Flyer'-a low-cost film would sweep the box office with its frank portrayal of the smuggling trade. Starring James Dean and Sal Mineo.

Norma Jean, first female Mafiosi, questioned by Rockefeller for racketeering at a Tammany Hall Sub-Committee hearing on organised crime.

Michael Corleone appointed Cardinal by the Pope.

I'd go with this-reflect the thirties in 2015-cigarrettes have a catalyst in the filter that prevents cancer, hats never go out of style, main frame computors only, martinis and coctails are a food group-Mad Men gone wild.

Beat nik groups instead of yuppies, very large nuclear plants that are safe and not built on fault lines, hybrid airplane cars just coming out, no rock and roll-extended Sinatra style music. Mafios more rooted.

Turbo-prop aircraft, some jets, early rocketry-no one in orbit yet. Big tanks, battle rifles, no assualt weapons, NO AK's!!!

Big planes, better, more futuristic Dirigibles, Spruce Geese, railroads still king, reduce size of Interstates.

A League of American States for economic and transport purposes. Alcoholic 'Fizzies' cause liquor industry to fail and no more wet/dry states because it's too easily smuggled. *LSD breakthru with Psionics awakened randomly-hats have a liner which prevents psi usage/targeting*

A Red Napoleon threatening Europe, a resurgent China with the Manchu'(Fu Manchu Dynasty-Tien Lung,grandson) with eyes on the Pacific. Castro/Che 'free' South America.

So maybe 1/3rd of the planes have jets, the rest turboprops, limited radar, no HUD because no microchip breakthru, more political, civil rights, women's lib, have vs have not turmoil.

Foo Fighters, UFO's, make appearances-villains or aliens?

A UFO version of the Predator would work.

Zepps will still be around-look at the hi-tech versions-resouce haulage, more on station coastal and riverine/lake patrol and picket line missile defense. Commercially, no one gets airsick on a dirigible and aero cruise ships would do better than wet cruise ships-the Hindenburg did many Atlantic crossings.

Too much modern day analogies. Heinlein's idea of individual corporate space exploration would fit better than NASA and with no Outer Space Treaty.....

The fascist states in Europe could have civil wars and succession crises, the socialist/communist could have purges that cripple them economically. You could have a peaceful Mid East if everyone there decides to shoot in one direction due to retro-active colonisation attempts. Jerusalem could be renamed Shalomtown and all faiths welcome, even be a place that religious leaders try to solve/influence the League of Nations(still no UN).

No WWII and you don't lose 5% of the planetary population, no massive rebuilding-more people, more quality individuals to move nation states forward. I won't be perfect but better than 1945+ IOTL.

Railway advances, bullet trains? I would really try to streeeeetch the thirties outlook of the future. Again race relations, women's Lib and corporate vs labor will be the hot spots for the US(Untied States). More Euro investment in the Americas? We couldn't enforce the Monroe Doctrine.

The Midwest was going socialist so I can see a Mao-West(hmmm...Fu Manchu marries Mae West-Dragon Lady of the Great Plains-daughter is Party Commissar of Omahan)

Not just air, I can see Q-Ship piracy, subrons commerce raiding, smuggling galore.

Russia would go after Alaska and anything from Canada they could grab.FFL in Quebec, Brits making deals left and right-Carribean alone...

Red Napoleons, Black Napoleons unifying Africa, and in the International Geophysical Year weird stuff from the poles, Luna, Tunguska, Pacific Co-Prosperity Sphere, Sino-Russian wars, Imperial Japanese coup and counter coup.

 

[RanulfC]

Consider that NATO and the EEC was a mess of egos and political scandals. Consider that thanks to De Gaulle, the alliances nearly collapsed in the first 12 years. In the same way, the internal political wranglings of each nation manage to be both a strength and weakness with each nation contriving against each other over minor issues, but occasionally coming together for the interests of the hemisphere.

But you've got none of the "incentives" for anything more than a general "trade agreement" between the NA nations in CS. Nothing to push it to be the semi-Union (especially with broad military powers such as suggested and a sitting parliament) you're suggesting. The US has been "dis-united" for less than 30 years at this point.

Also consider that Argentina, the Islamic Caliphate, Eurasian Union and African Union derve two purposes. First to fill on the vacuum created by the collapse of the North American and European systems, and second to demonstrate a political and societal order that doesn't revolve around Europe, America, India, China and Japan. As alluded to in the RPG, the situation in Europe is just as bad or worse in terms of socio-political collapse...

All well and good but what, where, and when did the European system "collapse" enough to make that relevant? Did the combatants of this WWII fight themselves into exhasution and when did the various nation states collapse? If none of it happens till the 70s or later that's one thing but from what I've seen of the TL this would have to happen in a big way during the period of our WWII and that's not shown. In CS the European nations are still going strong at the end of the "canon" period with Soviet Russia, Britain and France still world power-houses despite what happened to America.

Randy

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Here are a few PODs to show how the European beatdown took place in the ATL:

1936: King Edward VIII refuses to abdicate the throne, during a speech in London, defiantly challenging the Parliament,...

1936: Jamil Mardem Bey launches the Syrian Revolution in Damascus, forcing British military intervention in the region,...

1939: War of Irish Reunification ; Seamus O'Donovan, Sean Russell, and Joseph McGarrity launch a Irish nationalist uprising in Belfast,...

1939: Third Boer War; Ossewabrandwag led by Johannes van Rensburg, launches an Afrikaans War of independence in Johannesburg, South Africa,...

1940: Philippe Petain leads the French right-wing to victory in parliamentary elections in Paris, ...

1942: French General Strike led by Ernest Toussaint and Jean-Paul Schneider causes the collapse of the French government in Paris,...

1942: Subhas Chandra Bose, Indian Nationalist Army (INA), launches Indian War for Independence in New Delhi, triggering war in the region,...

1943: John MacCormick is arrested and executed for treason after publishing the Scottish Covenant, calling for Scottish independence, triggering a nationalist revolt starting in Edinburgh,...

1956: Pierre Plantard, Priory of Sion , proclaims the restoration of the Merovingian Dynasty in Paris, fueling ethnic and sectarian divisions,...

 

[RanulfC]

Indiana was a quagmire under Oliver Morton during the ACW, he tried to take over Kentucky's government and arrested lots of people for suspicions of loyalty. In those days Indiana had a *lot* of Southern sympathizers south of Indianapolis, where the bulk of the population lived. Morton began working to arm the state very early in the conflict and perhaps even before it, he suppressed his own state legislature, and essentially ruled as a dictator for a few years. Many in the state would join an independent South rather than the Northeast or (Communist) Midwest of this scenario. Illinois actually had a secessionist movement in the Southern part of the state, and again given the choice they are more likely to head South especially if Missouri is part of the South also. Then again, Illinois has always been a question of Chicago vs everyone else for much of the last 150 years, in this case Chicago is a Berlin equivalent and the downtown areas are occupied accordingly.

This is the "logic" that produces Pacifica/Cascadia btw in that Northern California would part with the south over representation issues. Being from the state I can pretty much guarantee it wouldn't actually work out that way. This is an issue with a LOT of the CS "splits" as they tend to ignore on-the-ground local conditions

I suspect the "southern" sympathies wouldn't be powerful enough for them to outright join Dixie at the start but if they would do so less than a decade later and not try to retain a local identity then it would be more likely that they would join Dixie initially and not the ISA in the first place. "Troops" or no

Whoever controls Washington DC would have considerable reason to claim legitimacy as the 'inheritor' of the United States. An Empire State as shown above would be a very powerful nation to contend with and the Dixie folks would also want to lay claim to the city, especially for defensive purposes. I thought about giving Delmarva to the Empire State and Maryland to Dixie but ultimately the prize is Washington itself. So it is a convenient buffer state and place to negotiate treaties, among other things.

Which is why I can see it being a "free-city" pretty much under no-ones "real" control. The problem with said city actually having any "territory" is it's (in game and once would suspect "for-real" ) tendency to be a hot bed of "Unionist" activity which would tend to preclude it's use as "neutral ground" for anyone. Further AS the "spiritual heart" of the Old Union there's going to be a lot of groups looking to put a stake into it as well.

I left out the super-science, but the sheer numbers of German immigrants and their descendants would favor the ability of a German government to influence the ISA. There would be more in the Collective but the Communist government will probably be more effective at keeping them quiet. I still had Nazis rising in the CS world, it just takes longer.

Thing is a LOT of those while they had German ties did NOT like the Nazi regime and most of those who actually supported and admired the Nazi's were home-grown. ANY attempted coup to fully align the ISA with Germany would face a huge backlash. And if it succeeded the over all backlash from everywhere would be much, much worse. Super-science or no you have to keep in mind that there's supposed to be a huge isolationist factor which helped the breakup in the first place and that hasn't gone away.

(In mine the Nazi group that tried the coup were looking to turn the ISA into haven so they could rest, rebuild and then go back to conquer the Fatherland for the REAL Germans.)

I figured the new governments on the American continent will start to coalesce for economic purposes and they have already begun to make treaties abroad. With the UK making friends in Dixie and France also making inroads (they are also influential in the Empire State in my original timeline), I thought it made sense to have Germany friendly with the ISA.

Treaties and trade are one thing, however Dixie's "dependence" on Britain and Quebec and Louisiana being pretty much French puppet states is a point of conflict not something anyone looks to for inspiration The ISA has ties to Germany yes but a mutually supporting and binding is probably not possible unless Germany is looking for a "fall-back position" in NA if things go badly for them in Europe. (Either way they wont't support or be happy with the ISA trying to get expansionist)

Given that there is an extreme isolationist and anti-European bias in the NA-nations I don't see them getting involved in European problems or letting Europe export them to North America.

Lockheed only needed funding to get the engine research off the drawing board, Nathan Price is still in California as would be Doble Steam Motors as would be Lockheed (and Hughes). The proposed aircraft was to attain a top speed of 600 MPH, and in this timeframe even 350 MPH would be a significant advantage. Lockheed also had an airframe design for the engine (L-133) which gave their people experience in designing jet airframes before the P-59 or P-80. Per the engineers I spoke with, the F-94 Starfire was supposed to be the version of the P-80 that Lockheed *wanted* to get into service with the P-80 as an advanced prototype to get the bugs out, unfortunately things did not happen that way.

The AVRO-car was supposed to be capable of 100,000ft and Mach-2 and they had the math to prove it don't forget While the CS aircraft had some pretty anemic top speeds, RW aircraft were pushing the sound barrier during the 30s and early 40s already so 350mph with horrible fuel consumption doesn't get you any real advantages. I'd agree with the Lockheed engineers they needed a lot more resources and support than they could get "just" from the company and I don't see Hollywood providing it. (You're CSU though so...) In the end early jets would have some advantages but they would be far more expensive and maintenance intensive for militias to field and if you follow the background militias tend to be the main bulk of aircraft users.

Texas in this timeline is crazy, but they are not stupid. Appalachia is a logical focus for Dixie as is Louisiana and the Outer Banks are already a protectorate under their control. Ultimately I have the government centralize a little bit more than in the books, but only just enough to coordinate logistics and field a fighting force. They like a very 'hands-off' government and it would have been largely that.

That actually makes it worse because the government is going to have issue with reigning in it's citizens Louisiana is first and foremost a foreign government interfering directly in North American which means anyone on the Texas side is going to jump on any sign of them moving towards Dixie whether the government wants them to or not. The Outer Banks won't get much notice but once Dixie goes into Appalachia in force you can bet that the folks in Texas will be keeping a very close eye on any move of Dixie towards the west as they are going to be seen as a British client state and trading the French for the Brits is still not a deal folks (let alone the government) of Texas is going to swallow.

Deseret will still be trying to settle and develop its own territories for a while, but yes there would have been an eventual war over what is now Idaho and Wyoming. Unfortunately Wyoming was only driven farther into the Cascadia camp because of this, the woodsmen there and in northern Idaho developed guerrilla tactics later copied by the Viet Cong among others. Deseret eventually slowed its expansions, but was still expanding slowly into Cascadia Territory until the later 50s when threats of war on two fronts loomed.

Uhm, Deseret will not go to "war" over the territory they only fight "defensive" actions The key is they will actually "colonize" the area's and Wyoming was already being infiltrated before the breakup. Idaho was already in Deseret's hands but the CS cannon seemed intent on insisting that only Utah was Mormon for which I forgive them their lack of accurate research. Deseret may not have enough forces to "keep" everything it declares is it's territory at the beginning (I'd really be surprised they didn't revert to claiming all of the old "territory of Deseret" territory from day one and adding just about everything to the east coast as well) but they WILL have more than just Utah at the beginning.

The Lakota join the Cascadians as an autonomous nation because they realize their resources are limited and their nation was being looked at like a juicy steak. Given the choice between very little government and a theocracy they don't like, they sided with Cascadia.

Cascadia's being looked at as a steak? Because by this time there's really little in the Lakota territory on anyone's list. It's too far north and Deseret can afford to wait them out. ("God will turn their hearts in the end") But moving west and north until that point only makes sense. I see Cascadia as getting the lesser end of any deal in joining the Lakota and I'm not even sure the Lakota would be worried about either Hollywood (logistics problems) or Deseret, (logistics AND force projection issues once they swallow most of Idaho and Wyoming) as they are sitting in a very nice defensive position where they are. (Even assuming they have more territory as per CS cannon and don't have Canada at their back)

Really I don't see how they "gain' much by alligning with Cascadia because Cascadia can't protect them and they can do the job much better themselves.

Again, I still had Nazis coming to power in my CS timeline, and it's not an exact analog WWII. The P-38 does appear on time though, it becomes a game-changer in North America and elsewhere.

Oh the Nazi's come to power since they do so in the background but I'm not sure how much that would effect politics around North America. WWII might go very similar to OTL but then again it might not.

Which P-38? After all it's a pistol, a can-opener, AND an airplane
"Game Changing" how so? I'll note the basic aircraft is already "in-place" you just need someone to add another engine to the Peacemaker (One thing that irked me about CS was no provision to follow some of the designs to logical conclusions. Push-me/Pull-you engine configurations were quite common in the 30s so why are they so rare in CS?)

My main contention with WWII NOT happening as per OTL is that the balance of power and circumstances have changed a lot. Not enough to stop the war as it's far past the tipping point but because technology and the general background have changed enough to that certain outcomes are not so certain anymore. The Spanish Civil War will probably not turn out as OTL I'd think as a minimum. Everyone in Europe has bigger and more eclectic Air Forces in TTL. England and France have a bit rougher relationship ITTL where as Germany may or may not be more worried about the Communist juggernaut than OTL. The Soviets still have not "resolved" the Civil War and while the White Russian's exist they are direct threat to them. There's a lot of background from JUST 1937 to 1950 to be hammered out before we can really be sure where it goes from there

There was a French fleet stationed at New Orleans following the fall of Paris and later Marseilles, and it played a part of its own. As did the Surcouf.

Ahhh, but is it still a sub-cruiser or did they try and match the Brits with sub-carriers instead?

Perhaps your timing is off just a little bit from mine

I'm still going back and forth because in my old TL WWII was between an axis that included the Soviet's and the Japanese on the same side against Britain and France with a neutral Germany. I also have a partial where France goes Communist and joins the Axis and Britain gives up everything in the Pacific other than Australia to the Japanese to get them on their side. And another where everyone is standing off trying to fight/support proxy wars in North and South America.

And yes, Trotsky played a role in the inter-war world of my scenario.

He'd go crazy but as a "father" of the revolution to the PC he'd but a MUCH more palatable "adviser" than anyone Stalin could bring to the table. In NONE of my timelines does Stalin's support for the PC go past 1940 and in several scenario's he tries to pull a coup in the PC once the Germans try a coup in the ISA. (Needless to say both fail but in doing so things do NOT go well for him in Alaska afterwards and Germany suddenly have no friends in North America)

Randy

 

[RanulfC]

Here are a few PODs to show how the European beatdown took place in the ATL:

1936: King Edward VIII refuses to abdicate the throne, during a speech in London, defiantly challenging the Parliament,...

1936: Jamil Mardem Bey launches the Syrian Revolution in Damascus, forcing British military intervention in the region,...

1939: War of Irish Reunification ; Seamus O'Donovan, Sean Russell, and Joseph McGarrity launch a Irish nationalist uprising in Belfast,...

1939: Third Boer War; Ossewabrandwag led by Johannes van Rensburg, launches an Afrikaans War of independence in Johannesburg, South Africa,...

1940: Philippe Petain leads the French right-wing to victory in parliamentary elections in Paris, ...

1942: French General Strike led by Ernest Toussaint and Jean-Paul Schneider causes the collapse of the French government in Paris,...

1942: Subhas Chandra Bose, Indian Nationalist Army (INA), launches Indian War for Independence in New Delhi, triggering war in the region,...

1956: Pierre Plantard, Priory of Sion , proclaims the restoration of the Merovingian Dynasty in Paris, fueling ethnic and sectarian divisions,...

Ok that pretty much puts maxium stress on Britain and France but a couple of points:

The Irish are going to do the ONE thing guaranteed to invite British intervention? Cool idea but what's to stop Britain from bombing them flat?

Who's South Africa revolting against? The Brits have already given them their own government and in 1939 the only question OTL was if they would support the Commonwealth or remain neutral.

1942: The French government might collapse but that doesn't mean the Empire does. (Opps, Republic at this point but it's still very much an ongoing Empire if Germany hasn't invaded per OTL) Speaking of, what is British and German reactions?

India seems somewhat correct as without WWII there was no promise of self-governance and by now they'd be seething. What about French overseas colonies because by this same time there were several active resistance movements going on.

14 years between collapse and a new government in Paris? I doubt there would be much left to "rule" over by this point but how much of old France does this new "kingdom" control?

Randy

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

It might help to provide some PODs to the ATL to provide some context to the views that have been made. Walls of text tend to only be distracting:

1938: Second Russo-Japanese War; Japanese and Soviet forces clash at Khalin Gol, triggering war across the Pacific Rim,...

1941: British dragged into region with attacks by the Japanese at Hong Kong and Hawaii, stretching the military to the breaking point,...

1945: Hibakusha Draft Riots; Draft riots in Hiroshima, Kyoto, and Nagasaki signal the growing unease and opposition to the wars in the Pacific Rim,...

1945: Unit #731 unleashes biological weapons at Pingfang, further destablizing the Pacific Rim, with cases of bubonic plague reported even in North America,...

1950: Hukbalahap, Filipino Communist guerilla forces overrun Manila, signaling how fragile the co-prosperity. Sphere is to most people,...

1954: Ho Chi Minh launches the Indocina War in Hanoi, fueling tensions across the Pacific Rim,...

1955: African and Asian leaders led by Sukarno, gather in Bandung, Indonesia in an effort to assett the "post-colonialist" era of both continents,..,

1965: Japanese puppet officials install Ferdinand E. Marcos, as head of the Filipino government in Manila,...

1966: Lin Biao launches the "United Front" campaign in a massive offensive targeting Japanese officials in Nanjing, serving to fracture the co-prosperity sphere,...

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Ok that pretty much puts maxium stress on Britain and France but a couple of points:

The Irish are going to do the ONE thing guaranteed to invite British intervention? Cool idea but what's to stop Britain from bombing them flat?

Who's South Africa revolting against? The Brits have already given them their own government and in 1939 the only question OTL was if they would support the Commonwealth or remain neutral.

1942: The French government might collapse but that doesn't mean the Empire does. (Opps, Republic at this point but it's still very much an ongoing Empire if Germany hasn't invaded per OTL) Speaking of, what is British and German reactions?

India seems somewhat correct as without WWII there was no promise of self-governance and by now they'd be seething. What about French overseas colonies because by this same time there were several active resistance movements going on.

14 years between collapse and a new government in Paris? I doubt there would be much left to "rule" over by this point but how much of old France does this new "kingdom" control?

Randy

In regards to the IRA, considering precision bombing was not a British skill, especially in 1939, the IRA is betting on the anger of collateral damage and injuries to actually sell their revolution, similar to the Republican cause in Spain still taking place,...

Well the Ossewabrangwag were anti-British and backed by Germany, so it would definitely be a third option of an offensive war against British forces in the region.

French collapse will be a "death of a thousand cuts" with the fighting in Asia , Africa, et al. , fueling collapses of the government,...

1939: Maurice Thorez launches a socialist uprising in Nice, France, fueling calls for ageneral strike,...

1940: Third Paris Commune; Maurice Treand and Jacques Duclos form a "revolutionary commune" in Paris, gathering support from laborers and students,...

1941: Andre Matsoua launches an armed insurrection in Brazzaville, fueling insrrection throughout Equatorial Africa,...

1941: Viet Minh guerrilla forces launch their nationalist uprising in Lam Song, escalating the violence in the region,...

1942: Henri Daralan takes over as the goverment collapses in Paris, amidst internal strife,...

1942: Pierre Laval comes to power as a coalition leader in Paris, proclaiming a "national revolution ",..,

1943: Benoit Frachon launches an armed insurrection in Vichy, calling for a socialist revolution,...

1947: Madagascar Revolution ; Nationalist Malagasy uprising led bed by Joseph Raseta, overthrows French rule of the island nation,...

1947: Marseilles General Strike; Labor unions clash against government crackdown,...

1952: Jean-Pierre Charid is assassinated after launching calls for the overthrow of the government in Paris,

1954: Jacques Massu, Raoul Salan, and Pierre Lagaillarde overthrow the government in a putsch in Paris,...

1964: Twin brothers Ronald & Reginald Kray seize control of the British government in a political coup in London,..,