WI: Modern Crimson Skies

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by terranova210486, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Crimson Skies will still likely produce a World War II analog, in an ATL I was working on this led to the coalescence of the Disunited States into only eight nations as a result of conquests and secret deals. The Industrial States of America uses German tech/engineering to run rampant across much of the continent, reaching as far as the Lake Champlain, Memphis, Omaha, Winnepeg, and Knoxville. Jet technology is developed around this time starting in California and Germany as Heinkel and Lockheed both fly secretly their first production models in 1939, the resulting shock when ISA/German jets (ME-262 with much better engines) encounter Dixie/British/Lockheed models (F-94 Starfire analogs and jet-enhanced P-38s) is thus impressive as neither side expected the other to be close to their own in those fields, much less a close match in 1944. Texas stays largely out of the global conflict, concentrating on then-neutral Mexico and taking over Sonora and Chihuahua in 1941 giving it ports on both the Caribbean and Pacific. Japan takes over Hawaii, the Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Thailand, French Indochina, and by war's end has secured much of China. Japan is careful *not* to declare war on the UK or Australia, instead opting to focus on synthetic fuels and providing the German scientific community a safe place to further develop technologies (which they steal as a form of 'protection money').

    By the end of this ATL WWII, Dixie absorbs Appalachia and the Outer Banks Protectorate while the Empire State absorbs the Atlantic Union and at the end of the war the Maritime Provinces (the latter only because of a secret deal with Dixie to recognize its new borders and the UK to recognize Ontarian borders). Cascadia/Pacifica absorbs most of the Disputed Western Territories with Lakota becoming a 'special status area' with a *lot* of autonomy but as a part of that nation. Arixo and the Navajo State are split at the OTL division of Arizona (going to Hollywood along with western Nevada) and New Mexico (going to the Republic of Texas, who also grabs southeastern Colorado and southernmost Kansas). Deseret takes southern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, eastern Nevada, and western Colorado while the People's Collective grabs eastern Wyoming and eastern Colorado, Denver becomes a 'free city' and Western place to negotiate peace settlements, mingle with other ambassadors, and spy on everyone. This is also to become the banking center of North America because its territory is too small to do much else and the revenues are enough to make the city among the richest in the world. French Louisiana is made to join Dixie as well, provoking the wrath of the Republic of Texas who wanted to have New Orleans and the tolls on the river for themselves. Texas does nothing about this, however, as they are dependent on the oil trade for their prosperity. They also sell to both sides while buying/trading tech with both sides, their Texas Instruments Model 105 jet (Avro C105 analog) is arguably among the most advanced jets in the world when it debuts in late 1945.

    Postwar sees the outright division of the ISA among the three largest victors, the Empire State getting Michigan and Ohio, Dixie taking Indiana, Illinois, and a 50-mile radius around the city limits of Cincinnati on the day of the Treaty of Chicago, and the People's Collective taking Wisconsin along with Minnesota. Chicago itself becomes divided like Berlin in OTL with the aforementioned American powers along with the UK each taking a quarter of the city to rule. Britain detonates the worlds atomic weapon in 1948 near Diego Garcia, France follows in 1950, Russia in 1953, and Dixie in 1959. Rocketry becomes a fascination of the North Americans but the defeated Germans still hold the commanding lead, it is a surprise to the British when the Russians put a satellite in orbit only two years after they do so in 1959 and get the first man into space in 1962. An even greater surprise was the cooperation of Hollywood, Dixie, and the Empire State in the Star Alliance space program launching their first satellite in late 1961 via a two-stage system using seven Aerojet X-8s as a first stage and one as a second stage. Their first man in space (reportedly decided by a drinking contest of all things!) would be David McCampbell flying his 'Progress' capsule from Cape Canaveral to near Britain.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  2. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Let's see how much of that can fit in. I'm pretty sure it will work. I've thrown in empires for Ireland, Argentina, Scandinavia, African Union, Somalia, Russia, and Persia, to make sure everyone can have a dastardly pulp threat. Another region that will be a mess is India and China, with the many warlords, generals, and would-be messiahs, lurking in the mess.
     
  3. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Here are a few PODs to flag that the ATL should be as fin and filled with in-jokes galore:

    1953: Psychohistorian Ward Moore secretly begins the "Project JUBILEE" in an effort to renify the North American continent, from New York City, New York,...

    1962: Philip K. Dick begins launching nationalist rallies calling for the expulsion of all foreign troops from the North American continent, starting in San Francisco, California,...

    1979: Order of Prometheus is established by L. Neil Smith as a ultra-nationalist effort to reunify the former United States of America in Denver, Colorado,...

    1994: Psychohistorian Harry Turtledove emerges as one of the leaders of the field, creating "analogue system equations " which serve to predict events with uncanny accuracy, in Los Angeles, California,...

    1995: Psychohistorian Robert Conroy, utilising the same programs of Harry Turtledove , calls for basic reforms in the former Industrial States of America,...

    1995: "Sliders" movement is launched by Tracy Torme and Robert K. Weiss, proclaiming "technological interconnection " justifying political reunification of the North American continent, with rallies starting in San Francisco, California,...

    2003: Tom Kratman , New England Confederation, calls for national reunification citing his outrage over the growing wave of "cultural socialism ",...

    2004: John Birmingham comes to power as Prime Minister in London, England, proclaiming a "New European Axis", calling for a European alliance,...

    2008: Tom Kratman, New England Confederation, launches calls for "volunteer militias " to fight against the Islamic Caliphate,....

    2008: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams, Alex Kurtzman, and Robert Orci launch a series of terrorist events aimed at forcing political reunification of the North American continent, threatening to escalate into war,...

    2009: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof proclaim the success of the "United Nations of America" campaign, as NAFTA is used to further federalize the continent,...

    2009: Followed by domestic scandal, technological collapse and massive austerity measures, French Premier Stephen M. Stirling calls for war against the Islamic Caliphate,...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
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  4. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
  5. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Welcome :)

    In theory, yes, in practice? Not so much :)
    (Mostly played very little as I used it as an RP background but the few times I did I stayed away from flak concentration and closed as soon as possible) Thing is railroads are industrial intensive and it's really easy to disrupt them and KEEP them disrupted and very hard to keep them in repair. On the converse side I'll grant that any nation that CAN build and maintain them WILL do so, but getting goods to market will take whatever route and means is most economical. (Good scenario resources as well as pretty gun-camera footage. Taking out a train engine along an isolated route and getting the cargo off-loaded would make a nice timed event :) )

    You're kinda answering your own argument but NEVER take away a man's trains... It make them surly ;)

    Agree to disagree then :)
    Easier to maintain and "produce" than autos and trucks and more mobile overall. People tend to forget how DIFFICULT long-distance travel was within the US till the mid-50s. Take away the majority of the rail network (it's very broken up by the end of the 30s in this case even if it's still intact on a more "local" level) and moving ANY significant amount of cargo is back to canals and water-ways.

    Would work actually :) And very much less "standardization" of designs as people experiment with multiple avenues. You'd get more production of "non-standard" designs than OTL. ( Burnelli designs being among my favorite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnelli_UB-14, though I have trouble getting people to NOT go directly to the super-heavy bomber designs ;) )

    I've recently found out that one of the fields I used to play in as a kid was a USAAF airfield in WWII. Salinas would have been in Hollywood (and a major agricultural resource, as long as you like Iceberg lettuce and beets :) ) but still only a milita airfield as we'd be too far from most "traffic" to bother with.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinas_Municipal_Airport
    (I'm actually from south of there but it's close enough :) )

    Uhm, we had... fields. Lots and lots of fields. Here's a specific case actually where the "nations" tend to break down. Because of the terrain (valley's with high mountains and few passes on both "sides" so all traffic has to go North {San Fransico} or South {LA} and beings as LA specifically has very little "local" resource to draw on for food and water as it expands I would fully expect that northern "Hollywood" would continually and quite often get the short end of the stick in Hollywood politics. But.... We've got the food and disruption of distribution would be pretty easy overall.

    Cesar Chavez is in California by the POD so come the early to mid 50s when he gets into activism for Farm Workers Hollywood Internal Security is going to take an interest and when he starts organizing he's probably going to be busted if not killed. It's not hard to see a farm-workers uprising(s) to take place in the early 60s and despite some support from the Hollywood social elite the business' would push the government to come down on them hard. Add in some probably covert support both from Mexico and the PC along with anyone else with a grudge and I'd say by the late 60s at the most you'd have a very nasty civil war going on in Hollywood.
    (This btw does NOT bold well for me personally. I live less than 15 miles from a VERY good hiding place for any gurilla groups and my home town was still pretty well polarized even in the mid 70s so I can seem me not living to get into the military and it not being as "pleasant" and experience as it was for me OTL :) )

    Randy
     
  6. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Oh I agree that all things being equal something like WWII is going to happen with or without a United States involved. If Japan and Germany continue on as OTL they will still have to deal with the French and British Empires, (one "quibble" I have with CS canon is the break up of Canada, while Quebec MIGHT get away with secession under the circumstances the Dominion of Canada was pretty robust and I don't see it collapsing short of the whole Empire going under and all THAT entails) and both of them are actually a lot better circumstances than OTL.

    I only count 6 nations (7 with the Navajo territories) not 8 what did I miss?

    ISA:
    I'd always figured that the IS was a North American Nazi analog 'state' and would be both beholden to and a puppet of Germany. Would this be WITH Germany going walk-about in Europe or with more overt German support but no European action? Because I can see the latter more than the former due to Germany's particular situation. I'm pretty sure that the ISA would follow Germany's lead in anti-antisemitism and fascism.
    Using this map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Skies#/media/File:Crimson_skies_map.png) I can see the ISA trying to cut off the upper portion of the PC but I'm not sure the bordering states in either the US or Canada would stand for it. That's everyone's breadbasket and though they and the ISA are the NA German and Russian analog the actual analog is very shallow.

    The ISA would face serious issues in going fully Nazi and the PC would lose the support of the USSR rather quickly because they are NOT going to be anything the Russian Communist's can deal with on a long term basis. (Christian Communist isn't as much of an oxymoron as many people would think and the PC would VERY much oppose the majority of Stalin's policies as well as tactics) Pretty much no one short of the nations with direct ocean access are going to be getting much actual support from the outside and even there there's no clear reason to fight more than proxy wars in North America for them.

    Frankly despite us American's conciet that we're the center of the Universe the truth is under the circumstances we'd be a very marginal "ally" and pretty useless to what's going on in the world overall. (No way to be anybodies "arsenal" as OTL and to isolationist to support anyone outside of North America)

    Can you give more details?

    Jet technology:
    Granted Dixie doesn't really have the industry for it but I'd see them getting jets before Hollywood does due to the British connection. How did the DBL cooperation come about given the bad-blood between Dixie and Hollywood and the fact the British weren't really happy with Hollywood's interference in Hawaii?


    Texas:
    I can see them staying mostly out of a "northern" conflict... Sort of, as I don't see Texas giving up a chance to take chunks of the PC away from them if possible. And they probably wouldn't have many issues with letting Dixie have New Orleans due to their own extensive coast line. River traffic is going to be seriously down THROUGH New Orleans anyway because the only thing shipping in large bulk is food. Things will get dicey as off-shore oil is discovered and tapped though.

    Japan:
    IIRC in CS Britian had a defense pact with Hawaii, AND it's very much at the limit of Japan's ability to logistically support action. What does it get them really and why would they bother with no cohesive US around?

    France controlled Indochina and if Japan takes it Britain would have to step in to protect THEIR far east holdings. Deceleration of War or no Australia is going to be screaming bloody murder over this expansion so there's no way Japan gets away with this move. (Besides if they are focusing on creating synthetic fuels their whole motivation for gaining the Dutch East Indies goes away)

    China was a quagmire and Japan was having trouble even before the POD OTL. Without the US around they can concentrate a bit more on China but you'd have Russia, France and England all keeping close tabs on them and trying to contain them. (My CSU has them being broken up by a Chinese Warlord {named Fu} using biological and gas attacks which render the majority of the Japanese troops in China moot. The following three way fight for China itself would still be going on into the late 70s)

    Dixie:
    This makes sense though I have to wonder how well Dixie is going to hold together under the circumstances as most of it's gains are actually a very large economic drain with little benefit. I've already noted that I disagree with Canada coming apart pre-war, post war might be different. Frankly I see both the French and British Empires coming apart rather quickly after the war. Which makes the post-WWII world a LOT less stable :)

    Cascadia/Pacifica:
    A bit iffy to me as I've never noted Cascadia/Pacifica to be a very stable or sustainable nation. Lots of territory, not much industry or population at the time. I suspect that they'd be a target of both Deseret and Hollywood in short order. Agree that Colorado is pretty much "doomed" too and I like the idea of Denver becoming a "free-city" but you're going to have to explain to me how C/P managed to become a power house :)

    French Louisiana:

    Given how hard France tried to maintain it's Empire post war I suspect this won't happen this way and more that as the rest of the French Empire falls apart France will be even MORE desperate to hang onto their territories in North America. I see a three way war with Texas and Dixie kicking France out of Louisiana and dividing it up equally with New Orleans another "free-city" beholden to both sides.

    Postwar:

    I don't see the ISA going "Germany" in the CS. Yes they'd attack the PC that's their food supply and beside Fasicm and any stripe of Communism is going to clash but they are too weak to take on everyone else. Most "nations" in the CS-US simply can't afford a multiple front war at any time.

    Atomic Weapons:

    I'd agree that Britain is the most likely to develop the bomb but they are going to be seriously hammered after a WWII analog and their going to have their hands full with a failing Empire at the same time. If they are lucky they can handle the freeing of India better this time around but I think it's unlikely as they will instead be trying to hang onto sources of income rather than letting them go and going back on the promise of freedom in exchange for help again the Axis is going to make things go pear shaped much quicker.

    But in the end it's YOUR world so you can do with it what you wish :)

    Randy
     
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  7. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Well with all of the suggestions, I will see what would sound good with mix. In the meantime, here are a few PODs to conue messing things up:

    1965: Ralph Nader overthrows the ISA government in Detroit, with his force of "Nader's Raiders" serving as his revolutionary guard,...

    1969-1971: American Indian Movement (AIM) guerrilla forces seize control of Alcatraz Island, proclaiming an independent state,...

    1975: Ernedt Callenbach,leader of Ecotopia Rising, launch an environmental revolution in Pacifica, spreading across the Pacific Northwest,....

    1976: Reverend Jerry Falwell launches his "America United " rallies starting in Lynchburg, Virginia,calling for a "moral and Christian nation"...

    1978: Race riots erupt in the theocracy of Deseret , fueled by calls for greater civil rights in Provo and Salt Lake City,...

    1980: America United members launch a purge of North American Parliament members of "foreign agents" in Washington D.C.,..

    1984: Reverend Jerry Falwell proclaims Ronald Reagan a "Christian leader" during a rally in Lynchburg, Virginia, fueling the nationalist movement,...

    1989: Reverend Pat Robertson takes control of the "America United" movement in Atlanta, Georgia, proclaiming a Christian theocracy,...
     
  8. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Hey we haven't even gotten to the more "juicy" pulp stuff yet either :)

    Nader's from California (Hollywood) and he won't have the same "base" in CS I'd think but I DO see someone eventually throwing out the Fascists.

    It would be Hollywoods maximum security prison and AIM would have no support since they already HAVE independent states to go to. Nope I don't think so.

    First you're going to have to convince me how Pacifica is going to be a "thing" still by 1975 AND then tell me why they'd have any support for such a movement given the far less industrial (and therefore polluting) infrastructure. I can see such a movement raising in the ISA where "Nadar's Raiders" have 'obviously' not gotten the job done in transforming the ISA...
    (IE the ISA descends into pretty much chaos as group after group try to "fix" things from the last 40 years and get no where before the next "revolution" happens)

    More like he'd be firebranding for Dixie to engage the PC and other "Non-(real-as-in-not-my-kind-of) Christian Nations and how moral corruption and non-Christian values tore down the "good-old" US.

    "Race" no, maybe religious as non-Mormon's try to get some traction but even if you were "non-white" it's less of a problem than if you're "non-Mormon" My wife's from there so trust me on this one :) But I"d have to point out that by the 70s there simply wouldn't BE a lot of "non-Mormon's" in Deseret anyway, nor any Mormon's anywhere else in North America.

    I can see that but really by the 70s I highly doubt D.C will exist anymore.

    Falwell is Dixie and he's no Unionist unless his personality is VASTLY different. Reagan is President of Hollywood and while he might accept such "praise" from a foreign source it would probably work against him at home. Reagan would want a new "United States" of course... Under Hollywood suzerainty :)

    Whilst I can see Dixie easily becoming a theocracy I still haven't seen a "good" reason given for any organization that espouse Unionist goals to have a large effect on the CS-US. Worse such and organization "taking over" a nation would turn every other nation fully against it and the nation it controlled. (Hence my comment about DC)

    And just to show I'm NOT only tearing ideas down I AM working on a timeline but am having troubles initiating WWII since in CS a LOT of factors are different but situations are very similar. (Having France and Britain "ambivalent" over a resurgent Germany as in CS is almost impossible to butterfly into being. Having Hitler in charge of Germany is doable, but its commented that the USSR (Red Russian) forces are among the "most powerful in the world" means that he'd be more focused towards that threat and more likely to try and ally with France and Britain which unless you butterfly Churchill into oblivion is going to be problematical at best. And frankly given the fear of Britain and France over Germany rebuilding, Hitler is going to HAVE to prepare for war with them before he can do anything about about the USSR. Meanwhile nothing is going to butterfly away Japan's aggression short of a major revolt. I'm leaning toward using the premise from "An Explosion Heard Around the World" but that still leaves a load of issues given the background)

    Randy
     
  9. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Here is the second draft of the ATL:

    1939: The Industrial States of America uses German tech/engineering to run rampant across much of the continent, reaching as far as the Lake Champlain, Memphis, Omaha, Winnepeg, and Knoxville. Jet technology is developed around this time starting in California and Germany as Heinkel and Lockheed both fly secretly their first production models.

    1942: Soviet mathematician Isaak Yudovich Ozimov develops his "theory of psychohistory" which details the sociopolitical nature of nation-state collapses in a predictable fashion. His work is immediately seized by Soviet authorities as a possible asset,...

    1941: Texas stays largely out of the global conflict, concentrating on then-neutral Mexico and taking over Sonora and Chihuahua giving it ports on both the Caribbean and Pacific. Japan takes over Hawaii, the Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Thailand, French Indochina, and by war's end has secured much of China. Japan is careful *not* to declare war on the UK or Australia, instead opting to focus on synthetic fuels and providing the German scientific community a safe place to further develop technologies (which they steal as a form of 'protection money').

    1942: Pope Pius XII calls for a "anti-Communist" crusade in Rome, Italy, signaling the dangers posed to Christendom by the ISA and the Soviet Union,...

    1944: ISA/German jets (ME-262 with much better engines) encounter Dixie/British/Lockheed models (F-94 Starfire analogs and jet-enhanced P-38s) is thus impressive as neither side expected the other to be close to their own in those fields, much less a close match

    1945: By the end of this ATL WWII, Dixie absorbs Appalachia and the Outer Banks Protectorate while the Empire State absorbs the Atlantic Union and at the end of the war the Maritime Provinces (the latter only because of a secret deal with Dixie to recognize its new borders and the UK to recognize Ontarian borders). Cascadia/Pacifica absorbs most of the Disputed Western Territories with Lakota becoming a 'special status area' with a *lot* of autonomy but as a part of that nation. Arixo and the Navajo State are split at the OTL division of Arizona (going to Hollywood along with western Nevada) and New Mexico (going to the Republic of Texas, who also grabs southeastern Colorado and southernmost Kansas). Deseret takes southern Idaho, southwestern Wyoming, eastern Nevada, and western Colorado while the People's Collective grabs eastern Wyoming and eastern Colorado, Denver becomes a 'free city' and Western place to negotiate peace settlements, mingle with other ambassadors, and spy on everyone. This is also to become the banking center of North America because its territory is too small to do much else and the revenues are enough to make the city among the richest in the world. French Louisiana is made to join Dixie as well, provoking the wrath of the Republic of Texas who wanted to have New Orleans and the tolls on the river for themselves. Texas does nothing about this, however, as they are dependent on the oil trade for their prosperity. They also sell to both sides while buying/trading tech with both sides, their Texas Instruments Model 105 jet (Avro C105 analog) is arguably among the most advanced jets in the world when it debuts....

    1946: Admiral Robert A. Heinlein, Republic of California, announces that he has "reverse-calculated" the "theory of psychohistory", shaking up the political and mathematical world,...

    1946: Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel establishes the "Kingdom of Vice" in Las Vegas, Nevada, sparking controversy throughout the North American continent...

    1948: Britain detonates the worlds atomic weapon in near Diego Garcia

    1950: France follows second with the detonation of its own nuclear weapon in Algeria,...

    1951: Argentina under President Juan Peron announces the detonation of a nuclear weapon at San Carlos de Bariloche, Argentina, near the Chilean border triggering fears of war in North America,...

    1952: Pope Pius XIII announces a call for a second "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Rome, Italy, targeting the ISA and the Russian successor states,...

    1953: Moshen Pezeshkpour comes to power in Tehran, calling for a New Persian Empire, with Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as its head,...

    1953: Psychohistorian Ward Moore secretly begins the "Project JUBILEE" in an effort to renify the North American continent, from New York City, New York,...

    1954: John Calvin King I, launches an armed insurrection in Dixie, proclaiming "by any means necessary" the need to overthrow the apartheid regime,....

    1954: Crooners Coup led by Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., et al. seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada)

    1955: Battle of Constantinople; Christian militias launch a brutal siege of Constantinople after Turkish forces launch a purge of ethnic Jewish and Greek populations,.....

    1958: "Pirate Radio" begin transmitting in portions of Germany, Denmark, Ireland and Great Britain, quickly becoming an international phenomenon,....

    1959: Rocketry becomes a fascination of the North Americans but the defeated Germans still hold the commanding lead, it is a surprise to the British when the Russians put a satellite in orbit only two years after they do so...

    1960- The Magnificent Seven documentary made about a mercenary aero squadron defending a island in the Carribean.(that's not a bad scenario idea)

    1961: Elijah Muhammad, leader of the Nation of Islam (NOI), and George Lincoln Rockwell, North American Fascist Party (NAFP) announce a summit in New York City, New York,....

    1961: Robert F. Williams launches Radio Free Dixie in Monroe, North Carolina, calling upon African-Americans to launch an armed insurrection in Dixie, triggering fears of a race war across the continent,.....

    1961: Celtic League is formed by Hugh McDiarmid in Dublin, calling for the creation of Pan-Celtic Empire, uniting Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, Isle of Man, and Scotland,...

    1961: Mahmoud Harbi launches the call for a Greater Somalia, during an ultranationalist rally in Mogadishu,

    1961: An even greater surprise was the cooperation of Hollywood, Dixie, and the Empire State in the Star Alliance space program launching their first satellite via a two-stage system using seven Aerojet X-8s as a first stage and one as a second stage.Their first man in space (reportedly decided by a drinking contest of all things!) would be David McCampbell flying his 'Progress' capsule from Cape Canaveral to near Britain.

    1962: North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) , launched by President John F. Kennedy of the New England Confederation, serves to establish a a military and political alliance to provide relative peace in the Western Hemisphere,....

    1962: North America gets the first man into space, fueling the start of the "Space Race",....

    1962: Philip K. Dick begins launching nationalist rallies calling for the expulsion of all foreign troops from the North American continent, starting in San Francisco, California,...

    1963: Treaty of Lagos; African Union (AU) is formed in Lagos, Nigeria, serving as the political union of the continent severing all ties with European colonialist leaders,....

    1964-Hughes-Goddard announced the successful launch of a orbital craft. Piloted by Charles "Chuck"Yeager and test subject Norma Jean (femme fatale and reputedly Einstein's mistress) the 'Atalanta' conducted tests for future flights and took extensive photographs of the Earth. Rival companies have announced they will follow suit after H-G has shown the way.

    1965: Treaty of Helsinki; Nordic leaders led by Hans Hedtoft, call for the creation of a Greater Scandinavia,...

    1965: Ralph Nader overthrows the ISA government in Detroit, with his force of "Nader's Raiders" serving as his revolutionary guard,...

    1966: Treaty of Europa is criticized as being "the Dictator's Club", citing a lack of commitment towards human rights or economic reforms,....

    1966-Europa Treaty(no NATO) begins to unravel: France and Spain quit due to economic/political/ego reasons, Greece and Turkey's 'altercations' erupt into full scale war. Germany's Civil War ends with Imperial Restorationists defeating the last remnants of Nazism at their so-called National Redoubt. Internal strife continues as a Imperial administration takes hold.

    1966-Clint Eastwood increases the popularity of 'Ramen-Westerns' from Chinese Cinema started with A Fistful of Yuan, For a Few Yuan More and culminating in the epic The Good, The Bad and The Long Nosed Round Eye.

    1967-Mid East Coalition Six-Day Summit which establishes economic, political and religious ties for the region. Consensus that it would be better to sell arms, oil and goods to the rest of the world together than tear each other apart. Also establishes a lucrative global corporate merc system.(that way there can be a 'Texas-Israeli War'.)

    1967: Argentinean, African Union, and Chinese forces begin transporting drugs en masse into North America, Europe, et al., under a policy of neo-mercantilism,...

    1967: Principality of Sealand established by Paddy Roy Bates, becomes the first nation-state formed from an artificial territory (an abandoned oil rig), off the coast of Great Britain,....

    1968: Sino-Russian War erupts between Russian and Chinese states over the Western Siberian and Manchurian territories,....

    1968: Pope Paul VI calls for a renewed call for the "liberation of the Holy Land", recruiting Christian militia and mercenary forces across the globe,....

    1968-Pope Paul VI increases the monastic/convent orders, re-instates military orders and forms a Papal Airforce.(very strict flying nuns..)

    1969-1989: Pax California; California Governors Richard M. Nixon and Ronald Reagan seize control of the NAFTA Parliament, proclaiming a series of political and economic reforms aimed at furthering the cause of reunification,....

    1969: Reverend Charles Manson, Family Ministries, launches a series of murders and bombings in Los Angeles, California aimed at triggering a "racial holy war"

    1969: Elvis Presley seizes control of the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada) proclaiming a "new era in music and culture",...

    1969-1971: American Indian Movement (AIM) guerrilla forces seize control of Alcatraz Island, proclaiming an independent state,...

    1970: American Indian Movement (AIM) led by Iron-Wielder, Leonard Peltier, and Russell Means, launch an armed insurrection in North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, and Montana,...

    1974-Warsaw Pact cascading revolt against troops used in Chinese theater.

    1975: Ernest Callenbach,leader of Ecotopia Rising, launch an environmental revolution in Pacifica, spreading across the Pacific Northwest,....

    1976: Biological weapons are unleashed, ending the Sino-Russian War, but triggering a massive humanitarian crisis as the few remaining systems that maintained the illusion of state stability suddenly collapse on both sides of the conflict,....

    1976: Reverend Jerry Falwell launches his "America United " rallies starting in Lynchburg, Virginia,calling for a "moral and Christian nation"...

    1977: Elvis Presley dies, causing a major succession crisis, Queen Ann-Margret launches a series of brutal executions in an effort to maintain power in the "Kingdom of Vice" (a.k.a. Las Vegas, Nevada),...

    1977: African-American gang leader Cornelius "King" Young is assassinated allegedly by police, after uniting the various gangs under his banner in New York City, New York,...

    1978: First pirate television broadcasts are launched in Syracuse, New York in an effort to promote resistance across North America,....

    1978: Race riots erupt in the theocracy of Deseret , fueled by calls for greater civil rights in Provo and Salt Lake City,...

    1979: Juhayman al-Otaybi is proclaimed Mahdi in Mecca, proclaiming the Caliphate in Mecca, claiming control over most of the Middle East and North Africa,....

    1979: Order of Prometheus is established by L. Neil Smith as a ultra-nationalist effort to reunify the former United States of America in Denver, Colorado,...

    1980: America United members launch a purge of North American Parliament members of "foreign agents" in Washington D.C.,..

    1980-1981: Somalia threatens to annex Ethiopia, triggering the Treaty of Lagos member-states to deploy troops to contain the crisis,...

    1981: Manhattan Island is completely submerged after years of flooding since c.1945, but residents refuse to leave, transforming the city into a modern-day Venice,....

    1981: American and European dissidents led by William S. Burroughs seize control of Madagascar, establishing the "Independent Republic of Libertatia",....

    1983: "Screaming Lord" David Edward Sutch seizes control of the English government in a political coup in London, England,....

    1984: Pope John Paul II launches a call for a third "anti-Communist crusade" during mass in Gdansk, Poland, signaling that "We are blessed by the Virgin Mary",...

    1984: Reverend Jerry Falwell proclaims Ronald Reagan a "Christian leader" during a rally in Lynchburg, Virginia, fueling the nationalist movement,...

    1985: EuroAid; African leaders launch humanitarian aid relief and efforts towards the African continent, starting in London, England, although they are hampered by the Islamic Caliphate,....

    1985: Church of Elvis Presley is established in Memphis, Tennessee and the "Republic of Vice"(Las Vegas, Nevada),...

    1985: Robert Zemeckis begins marketing commercial hoverboards , becoming a major fashion and sports craze in Hill Valley, California,...

    1986: Dixie declares a "State of Emergency" citing growing opposition to the apartheid regime by African-American guerrillas and calls to release John Calvin King I from prison,.....

    1986-1992: Collapse of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere due to armed insurrections and revolutions throughout East Asia from the Philippines to Manchukuo, triggering a refugee crisis across the region,....

    1989: Reverend Pat Robertson takes control of the "America United" movement in Atlanta, Georgia, proclaiming a Christian theocracy,...

    1991: NAFTA forces launch an invasion of Texas, after it threatens to seize oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, Coalition forces led by New England Confederation President George H.W. Bush overthrow the regime led by H. Ross Perot,....

    1991: Siege of Shalomtown; Islamic Caliphate forces launch a siege of the interfaith community in Shalomtown, amidst international indifference to the issue,...

    1992: Siege of Los Angeles, General Darryl Gates launches a siege of the city, imposing martial law, claiming that he is attempting to root out corruption, ...

    1994: Reconquista Mexico (a.k.a. Second Mexican-American War) Carlos Truxillo and Jose Angel Gutierrez lead a war of reconquest against the former United States, in an attempt to reconquer California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Utah and Colorado,....

    1994: Vladimir Zhirinovsky launches an ultra-nationalist revolution in Moscow, calling for the unification of the Eurasian continent under his rule, as a means to counter the threat to the Caliphate,....

    1994: Crime lords Tupac Shakur and Notorious B.I.G. , take advantage of the Second Mexican-American War, uniting their resources on the East and West coasts of the North American continent,...

    1994: Psychohistorian Harry Turtledove emerges as one of the leaders of the field, creating "analogue system equations " which serve to predict events with uncanny accuracy, in Los Angeles, California,...

    1995: Psychohistorian Robert Conroy, utilising the same programs of Harry Turtledove , calls for basic reforms in the former Industrial States of America,...

    1995: "Sliders" movement is launched by Tracy Torme and Robert K. Weiss, proclaiming "technological interconnection " justifying political reunification of the North American continent, with rallies starting in San Francisco, California,...

    1996: Neo-Swing Music Renaissance; Groups such as the Squirrel Nut Zippers, Michael Buble, Connie Champagne, Lavay Smith & the Hot-Skillet Lickers, Pink Martini, the Brian Setzer Orchestra, serve to revive the music scene

    1996: Japanese officials launch policy of "Hikkomori" (extreme isolationism) sealing themselves from the rest of the world after the collapse of the Co-Prosperity Sphere,...

    1997: African Union President Kofi Annan calls for the development of human rights, citing the rise of the Islamic Caliphate, the rising number of European refugees, and the threat of the Eurasian Union,....

    1997: Church of the Militant Elvis is launched in Memphis, Tennessee, with adherents in the "Kingdom of Vice" (Las Vegas, Nevada), proclaiming Presley a "holy prophet",...

    1998: With the death of Queen Ann-Margaret, a war of succession occurs in the "Kingdom of Vice" , with many musicians and entertainers attempting to seize control of the city-state including Celine Dion, Britney Spears, et. Al,....

    1998: Osama bin Laden comes to power in the Islamic Caliphate, proclaiming himself as the Mahdi in Mecca, threatening war against the West,....

    2001: World Social Forum (WSF) is established in Porto Alegre, Brazil, citing the ineffective nature of the League of Nations and its Eurocentric and racist nature,....

    2002: Treaty of Durban; with the surrender of Afrikaaner troops in Durban, the African Union effectively has unified Sub-Saharan Africa into a political super power,...

    2002: Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, launch the "ARK Intiative" to evacuate Earth, citing the growing anti-intellectualism, environmental destruction, and the political anarchy (Think Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow)

    2003: Coalition forces launch a second attack into Texas, after the threat of an embargo against NAFTA states, trigger civil unrest and panic across much of the North American continent,....

    2003: Tom Kratman , New England Confederation, calls for national reunification citing his outrage over the growing wave of "cultural socialism ",...

    2004: Alianza Bolivariana para los Pueblos de Nuestra América (ALBA) is formed in Buenos Aires, Argentina, calling for the quarantine of the NAFTA nations, as "a threat to world security and peace",....

    2004: French Prime Minister Jean Mare Le Pen warns of the threat posed by the threat of Eurasian Union under Vladimir Zhirinovsky,....

    2004: Islamic militias launch a massive offensive in an effort to seize Bosnia-Hercegovina, after taking control of Kosovo,...

    2004: John Birmingham comes to power as Prime Minister in London, England, proclaiming a "New European Axis", calling for a European alliance,...

    2005: James McMillan comes to power as mayor in New York. City, New York, based on an economic populist platform,...

    2008: Eurasian Union State Psychohistorian Igor Panarin predicts that the North American continent will be vulnerable to attack by 2010, citing the growing civil unrest and panic in the region,....

    2008: Tom Kratman, New England Confederation, launches calls for "volunteer militias " to fight against the Islamic Caliphate,....

    2008: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams, Alex Kurtzman, and Robert Orci launch a series of terrorist events aimed at forcing political reunification of the North American continent, threatening to escalate into war,...

    2009: Technological leader and CEO Ryuho Okawa seizes power in a corporate "hostile takeover " of the government, backed by zaibatsu power, becoming the head of state, promising "technological wonders "...

    2009: Rogue psychohistorians J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof proclaim the success of the "United Nations of America" campaign, as NAFTA is used to further federalize the continent,...

    2009: Followed by domestic scandal, technological collapse and massive austerity measures, French Premier Stephen M. Stirling calls for war against the Islamic Caliphate,...

    2010: Eurasian Union military forces and officials launch Operation MORSKOY LEV, in an effort to conquer the North American continent, claiming that the region represents "the greatest threat to world peace"....

    2010: Pope Benedict XVI launches the call for a fourth "anti-Communist crusade" citing the growing threat of the Eurasian Union under Vladimir Zhirinovsky,....

    2011: 15 years of extreme isolation by Japan, rumors of strange developments in robotics and cybernetics are rumored to have taken place in the midst of the national collapse,....

    2014: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is named the new Mahdi of the Caliphate, after the sudden and suspicious death of Juhayman al-Otaybi, renewing the war in the region,....

    2015: Entrepreneur Donald Trump of New York City, New York launches the "America United (AU)" campaign, calling for the political unification of the North American continent,....

    Details:

    ChiPS: HAPs
    California Highway Patrol with Ponch and John will be the (Nation of) Hollywood Air Police with Burt Lancaster and Nick Cravat

    Knight Rider : The Flying Knight with Errol Flynn

    Airwolfwith Buster Crabbe

    The Grapes of Wrath will be about the Mid-West Socialist Movement revealing the existence of Chinese Commissars assistance.

    Airplane would be a Oscar winning comedy film taking place on a 'Spruce Goose'.

    Bette Page in Kitten With A Whip would be banned from theaters.

    'Easy Flyer'-a low-cost film would sweep the box office with its frank portrayal of the smuggling trade. Starring James Dean and Sal Mineo.

    Norma Jean, first female Mafiosi, questioned by Rockefeller for racketeering at a Tammany Hall Sub-Committee hearing on organised crime.

    Michael Corleone appointed Cardinal by the Pope.

    I'd go with this-reflect the thirties in 2015-cigarrettes have a catalyst in the filter that prevents cancer, hats never go out of style, main frame computors only, martinis and coctails are a food group-Mad Men gone wild.

    Beat nik groups instead of yuppies, very large nuclear plants that are safe and not built on fault lines, hybrid airplane cars just coming out, no rock and roll-extended Sinatra style music. Mafios more rooted.

    Turbo-prop aircraft, some jets, early rocketry-no one in orbit yet. Big tanks, battle rifles, no assualt weapons, NO AK's!!!

    Big planes, better, more futuristic Dirigibles, Spruce Geese, railroads still king, reduce size of Interstates.

    A League of American States for economic and transport purposes. Alcoholic 'Fizzies' cause liquor industry to fail and no more wet/dry states because it's too easily smuggled. *LSD breakthru with Psionics awakened randomly-hats have a liner which prevents psi usage/targeting*

    A Red Napoleon threatening Europe, a resurgent China with the Manchu'(Fu Manchu Dynasty-Tien Lung,grandson) with eyes on the Pacific. Castro/Che 'free' South America.

    So maybe 1/3rd of the planes have jets, the rest turboprops, limited radar, no HUD because no microchip breakthru, more political, civil rights, women's lib, have vs have not turmoil.

    Foo Fighters, UFO's, make appearances-villains or aliens?

    A UFO version of the Predator would work.

    Zepps will still be around-look at the hi-tech versions-resouce haulage, more on station coastal and riverine/lake patrol and picket line missile defense. Commercially, no one gets airsick on a dirigible and aero cruise ships would do better than wet cruise ships-the Hindenburg did many Atlantic crossings.

    Too much modern day analogies. Heinlein's idea of individual corporate space exploration would fit better than NASA and with no Outer Space Treaty.....

    The fascist states in Europe could have civil wars and succession crises, the socialist/communist could have purges that cripple them economically. You could have a peaceful Mid East if everyone there decides to shoot in one direction due to retro-active colonisation attempts. Jerusalem could be renamed Shalomtown and all faiths welcome, even be a place that religious leaders try to solve/influence the League of Nations(still no UN).

    No WWII and you don't lose 5% of the planetary population, no massive rebuilding-more people, more quality individuals to move nation states forward. I won't be perfect but better than 1945+ IOTL.

    Railway advances, bullet trains? I would really try to streeeeetch the thirties outlook of the future. Again race relations, women's Lib and corporate vs labor will be the hot spots for the US(Untied States). More Euro investment in the Americas? We couldn't enforce the Monroe Doctrine.

    The Midwest was going socialist so I can see a Mao-West(hmmm...Fu Manchu marries Mae West-Dragon Lady of the Great Plains-daughter is Party Commissar of Omahan)

    Not just air, I can see Q-Ship piracy, subrons commerce raiding, smuggling galore.

    Russia would go after Alaska and anything from Canada they could grab.FFL in Quebec, Brits making deals left and right-Carribean alone...

    Red Napoleons, Black Napoleons unifying Africa, and in the International Geophysical Year weird stuff from the poles, Luna, Tunguska, Pacific Co-Prosperity Sphere, Sino-Russian wars, Imperial Japanese coup and counter coup.
     
  10. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    I'd guess Columbia.

    Crimson_skies_1945.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  11. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    A) Actually Ralph Nader was born in Winstead, CT and was in the Michigan area when he started his activism. His transported revolutionary fervor could easily be like that of Che Guevara or Simon Bolivar...

    B) Actually the Indians mentioned are California in nature, representing the Pomo, Ohlone, et. Al,

    C) Four major industries fishing, agriculture, oil and lumber sustain Pacifica. The reason that the environmental movement arises is that dams, oil, and lumber began taking its toll on the environment. This and the New Age religious fervor of the period give rise to Ecotopia.

    D) Actually Jerry Falwell believes he is following in the tradition of Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, in the belief of a Christian nation. He is part of the Dominionist movement that believes America represents God's Kingdom,...

    E) Well considering the border states and territories, there was a sizable African-American community, remember "40 Acres & A Mule". Also remember that much of the "hired help" even in Utah were Mexican-American, Native American, or African-American,...

    F) In the model of the ATL, John F. Kennedy. Leads the formation of NAFTA much like the European Union. Washington D.C. would be restored much in the same way Paris, London, or Rome is still a center of European politics. ..

    G) No change in policies, he's being Machiavellian by trying to kiss a$$ with the North American Parliament leaders,...

    H) Consider until the post-WWII and post-1968, close to 90% of the country identified itself as being Christian. Falwell is working under the false assumption that the Christian identity alone is enough to unite the population.
     
  12. terranova210486 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Any ideas how movies and other forms of entertainment might of evolved in North America?
     
  13. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    * Up until c. 1956, R&B and rock music was labeled "Race Music" due to the heavy African-American presence, the trend could continue,...

    * Prior to the Hayes MPAA ratings code in 1935, there actually was a lot of swearing, nudity, drug abuse, et al., in film. In King Kong, Faye Wraye was actually stripped nude by King Kong, until censors cut it out. In. Gone With the Wind , Clark Gable is supposed to rape Vivien Leigh's character, until it was cut by censors,... Imagine what if federal censors were not around?

    * Riverboats for drugs, gambling, prostitution, and the occasional fight, made a brief return during Prohibition because of the fact that legally what happened on the water was not held to the laws of the land under maritime law. This was popular in the Gulf States and throughout the South,...

    * Starting in 1989, playing with the resurrection of an American government, consider American Gladiators but with actual fatalities, injuries and all for the "bread and circuses ". Plus it adds to the Roman Empire motifs,...

    * Starting in 1983, as seen in James Bond films, video games were supposed to rise to a high culture venue, complete with holographic and VR displays,...
     
  14. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    I sent in some things earlier that got put in, the reason I have the ISA linked to the Nazis was that the ISA is openly looking at Iowa while covertly looking at Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky. There is a collaboration with Messerschmitt in one of the sourcebooks producing a 'Hellhound' aircraft with slightly forward-swept wings. Also, the ISA is working hard to suppress the unions while being run by a criminal cartel. It seemed to be a perfect fit especially as the British are using the Confederation of Dixie in a similar respect.

    World War II is still going to happen, or at least some version of it, and the nations of Crimson Skies are still very new. Many are still competing or eyeing neighboring territories and this war is a perfect excuse to settle grudges and frontiers.

    Lockheed was working on jets in the mid-30s with plans for the L-133 fighter to be powered by a L-1000 engine with a planned top speed of 600 MPH (http://hyperscale.com/features/2002/l133tc_1.htm). Lockheed would be free to pursue that design in this case as something very experimental. Dixie gets jet from the British under the Power Jets license as per OTL.

    Dixie realizes that it has to have a unified structure of some sort, the wartime and post-war government govern lightly but only via supermajorities such that the federal government is often paralyzed. They are able to pass budgets and very necessary items while trying to muster 70% majorities between four or five major parties. There are sixteen stars on the Dixie flag, Ohio/Cincinnati getting the sixteenth star. Talk exists of one day incorporating Texas, possibly with Arizona or Kansas, and a twenty-star flag is known to exist somewhere in the Capitol Building in downtown Atlanta.

    Deseret also has lower population as does northern California. Those who do live there like to be left alone, Seattle will develop into a very green hi-tech center at some point. The rest of the nation is rich in natural resources that would aid in its development later.

    I had Louisiana join Dixie less than 48 hours after the fall of France and Texas showing up with an ultimatum to join less than 20 minutes after the deal was done. France can say what it likes, but Dixie made a few accomodations and Louisiana remains a very wet state.
     
  15. terranova210486 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Why would some of the northern states join Dixie?
     
  16. M79 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    In the backstory I'd written the ISA had taken sides with the Nazis while the Empire State, People's Collective, and Dixie were Allied. ISA got divided between them after the war. Besides, I thought Illinois and Indiana would be the most likely to join the South out of the six states listed. That was the basis for my submission.
     
  17. Mr_ Bondoc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Illinois, the State of Lincoln joins the Confederate States of America? That's pretty ASB. Indiana was also one of the first states to mobilize in the Midwest for the Civil War, were at Bull Run and Gettysburg, with over 25,000 killed throughout the state. If anything, another ASB state for the CSA.
     
  18. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Did, mostly because as I noted in a general state of War in NA I don't see Columbia being long for this world. It just has too little going for it as a "nation". I rapidly see it becoming a "protectorate/free-city" beholden to it's neighboring nations.

    Depends I suppose if you consider the video games at all "canon" which in my case I do without over-the-top super-science. The main reason is I can't see things proceeding per OTL given the circumstances and Hitler needs to go plain and simple.
    My POD(s) is this (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=213412) happens earlier, and France doesn't go "defensive" with the Maginot Line which lost it the confidence of most of Europe that it was going to be "proactive" versus renewed German expansion. With the Nazi hard-liners suppressed, (hence why a splinter group tried to take over the ISA as a new base of operations) there's more of a chance of a united front towards the USSR. (Which in CS is noted as "the most highly regarded in the World" and therefor a HUGE danger to the West, more so that OTL)

    It's possible that both Britain and France are more concerned with each other (which is somewhat alluded to in the game) but given the OTL worries over Germany AND the TTL power of the USSR I don't see them coming in "conflict" and doing more than posturing.

    Yes but they are going to be more wary of the support of the European powers because of the heavy isolationism inherent in the background. Despite Dixie, Louisiana, and the ISA's closer ties to European powers even without a failed coup in the ISA there's going to be a lot of home grown worry over fighting proxy wars for "kings-and-princes" of Europe. If you add in the failed coup...

    I don't see the CS WWII analog being the same as OTL at all since every nation is much more prepared than OTL and while Germany COULD still be a danger it won't get at far as OTL due to said preparations. The more likely show-down is between East and West. Which leads to issues as I don't see any way for Japan to be any less aggressive or imperialist and they don't have much in common (and a shared fear in the west of a communist east) with the USSR but I can see China being a point of both contention and cooperation. With a mutual border in China I could actually see Japan and the USSR cooperating to cause world wide problems with only two combatants they would consider a threat which are France and Britain.

    Given the idea of a NA war I don't see Lockheed having the resources or time to devote to development. That had enough trouble OTL and still didn't get it developed "on-time". Further the L-1000 while innovative wasn't as efficient or powerful as other engines which is why it was a developmental dead end. Dixie MIGHT get Jets from the Brits but they are going to be lower priority than the Dominions. There's a LOT less incentive for any European power to invest in any NA nation because we just are not able to be anyone's bastion or arsenal. Granted I can see various NA Nations taking advantage of a general world war to begin fighting for territory gains as possible but no one is going to get any support from outside and have any support they are currently getting drastically cut in the mean time. I don't see the incentive for the ISA to get greedy under the circumstances.

    Interesting but I don't see the "draw" of joining Dixie for most other states that are not already in it by 1937. Appalachia is foreseeable as they want to stabilize the region but I don't see anyone letting them get away with it for the most obvious reasons and the "fact" that everyone sees them as a British client state anyway. IF Texas got even a HINT of such "thinking" on the part of Dixie you're looking at full engagement and SERIOUS popular war with Dixie over such an insult. Even if France were fully invested in Louisianan still at that point it would be a bump in the road to Texas on their way to Atlanta :) Frankly by this point (1937) I fully expect Texans to believe it was all the REST of the Souths (Dixie) fault THEY lost the first civil war and they are not about to let anything less than Texas lead a "new" south. They may not like the PC but they would gladly help them hold off Dixie in exchange for "future" negotiations on territory or trade.

    Deseret has a larger world-view even this early and it's got some income and population still incoming from missionaries which while low at the time were still prevalent world wide. While Pacifica/Cascadia wants to be left alone in truth they have far to much resources and too little population/industrialization to resist for long and you'd have both Hollywood and Canada (and more specifically Britain) looking to access those resources during and after the war. Even if Canada broke up as in the CS-TL the north west terrorizes have a very strong pro-British population and Britain will do what ever they need to keep those territories within their sphere of influence if not a Dominion.

    In your CSU I can see them lasting a lot longer than in mine but the end result would be post-war their neighbors are going to simply move in and take the resources and there's little they could do to stop them as long as the neighbors avoided pissing off the Lakota nations which should be doable.

    So you have WWII going much the same, just without the US as an outside participant? Like I noted above I don't see the prelude being the same so the combatants are not as likely in the same configurations. (Heck toss in a Communist coup in France and things would REALLY be different :) )

    That also ignore Vichy France and German support (ISA in this case) thereof. More so if the ISA can use the rivers as a method of getting supplies to Germany. (And if Germany is still the aggressor in your CSU then they have even more "incentive" to push more Vichy forces into Louisiana to get them "free" of both the FF and Allied forces. (Not that I think the Brits would let them get away with it but imagine the BB Richelieu and escorts in New Orleans rather than France and getting torpedoed by Dixie/Brit aircraft :) )

    The more I think about it the more I can see France falling to an internal Communist coup freaking the HECK out of both Britain and Germany and seeing Churchill being ousted to clear the way for a German/British allied pact against world wide Communism :)

    Which leads me to thinking that Leon Trotsky in the CS-TL would have probably made his way to the People Collective and while being less than thrilled over their adherence to the opium of religion would probably work out much better for both sides as the PC could transition to a more stable Socialist rather than Communist government and "change" in time to not be everyone's enemy when world "Communism" becomes a problem.

    Randy
     
  19. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Maybe but he needed to media backing he got in CA to get where he did and it might not work so well in a media controlled environment like the ISA. He wasn't actually that impressive in person.

    I know but the incentive and ability wasn't there without outside support and there's still the problem it very much won't be an abandoned tourist attraction in TTL :)

    Those industries support but do not constitute a viable industry to defend the nation. Those are resources every ELSE wants and are willing to buy for a time but once environmentalism (which is going to in fact sabotage those industries) come to the fore then someone will step in and step ON Pacifica and Ectopia goes away. I don't think that people realize that the "government" of Pacifica/Cascadia is an oligarchy of "industries" which will have NO issues with breaking heads and bodies to keep things going. And if they fail then what follows will have no legitimacy or support from any other nation and the whole system is going to end up in someone else s hands who's even LESS caring about the local environment. Under the circumstances I can see the Lakota nations expanding into parts of Pacifica/Cascadia but they will NOT in any way be willing to "accommodate" the non-NA population no matter how "sensitive" they are. By the time listed they will be VERY much about establishing a new "Nation" without any of the "invader" population and you're going to see a LOT of "payback" for past issues.

    Understood that but he's NOT going to play it that way as he needs to get Dixie under his control first :) He'll play locally first and foremost followed by pushing to get Dixie involved in "re-conquest" of 'God's Kingdom' on Earth after that. It will play well down south but in places like the PC and up north it might pickup some adherents but the majority are going to see it as too "Southern" for them. WE have a United States and because of the continued and very heavy "melting pot" of population that moved about quite a bit during the 50s through 70s we have enough populations that feel kindred with the ideals Falwell, et al espoused that there was at least SOME national unity feelings. But it was never enough to propel them where they wanted to go and in the CS-TL it will be even less so with the more isolationist and "separate" movements and beliefs.

    There might be enough given a post-war depression in Dixie to gain a theocracy but it won't be Dominism or Unionism compatible.

    Well aware I've been living here for decades now and as noted my wife is native :) But the points of contention are religious, not race. Specifically with the CS passage of the "Smith Law" there simply won't be any question of "race" only of religion. As long as one is Mormon then its an internal matter but the only ones who would be seriously disenfranchised would be non-Mormons. (They had black chief sheriffs around here in the 60s. They were Mormon so "race" didn't matter as much) If Deseret survives to the 1960s then they are going to still push world wide for an increase in population and industry as they (Utah/Mormon Church) did OTL with millions of dollars and thousands of people coming to them from around the world and they are very much going to be in an expansionist mood.

    Simply put if you're a Mexican American/black MORMON in Deseret of the 1960s you're going to be treated much better than a white non-Mormon. (This was very true all the way through the 80s OTL as my wife can attest to. Even in the late 1980s most employment forms had a space for "ward" which was so the employer could check you standing with the local Bishop)

    While I see a NAFTA trade agreement and possible some re-unification effort going on I would fully expect forces (pre-Falwell in Dixie, generally in the PC and a lot in Texas) to oppose anything beyond trade. And by that time the roads and railroads inter-state are going to have to have a full blown effort to restore to any condition to make that happen and that's going to keep any budget for much else re-unification wise from happening. Unlike Europe the NA nations have been "separate" less than 50 years but have managed to build up a lot of internal discord by the early 60s. NAFAT would be a step towards healing those wounds but would not have the emphasis to be much more without some sort of "boogeyman" external enemy. Even the "psychohistory" math would show it to be far to soon to re-unite :)

    Reagan would NOT be a member of the NA Parliament when he could be President of Hollywood as it would be a MUCH more satisfying job for him and much more personal. He'd launch into a campaign to "support" Falwell in turning the "Decadent and Evil" Dixie government which is a "puppet of a failed European Empire" into a decent, upright, Christian member of the North American nations, which would cause an up swell of anti-Falwell sentiment in Dixie at the very time he doesn't need it :)

    In short I'm not seeing how NAFTA in the 60s could be anything BUT a pre-cursor to some talk of re-unification. Even with JFK, (and really it would his older brother who doesn't die as OTL) there's going to be very little support for re-unification before you have several decades of peace and trade increase between the NA nations. And I frankly don't see that happening with the upheavals in various nations by the 60s. Dixie is going to be having problems with racial issues and if not already a South Africa-like apartheid state it soon will be. (It's possible the "start" noted in the game with some of the individuals in Dixie pushing for more equal relations, but I'd say the KKK will put paid to that in short order. On the other hand having DONE so they may face a backlash over killing genuine Dixie hero's over something most would see as "minor" issues during the 30s and 40s)

    But it's quite clear by the late 30s that the definition of "Christian" is going to be much different AND tied more to local areas than IOTL. You have the Mormons of Deseret who ID as Christian but no-one outside Dixie will be willing to accept that ID. Then there's the PC where they are Christian Communists (actually Socialist and I expect that to be even MORE implicit in short order) but their view on race and religion will differ greatly from Falwell's Dixie. Enough so that reconciliation is far from likely with his rhetoric. And the Norther Nations are going to be different as well given the protestant liberalism in vogue and by the time Falwell arrives he's going to have his hands full JUST in Dixie.

    I'm going to note again that the PC "Communism" isn't going to be appealing to ANY European form of Communism and very unlikely to be supported by anyone from either Europe or Asia. The Christian "bent" is just not going to ever go away and that's a huge sticking point for any outside Communist state. Further the PC is never going to descend into the kind of suppression and anti-intellectualism of the European and Asian communist states and the government actually "of-the-people/by-the-people" it represents is simply not going to make any sense to outsiders. The PC in it's own will become rapidly disillusioned with "World Communism" because it engenders far to many inherent contradictions that they will be unable to join in community with any of them. There will be a break (I see it coming in 1937 since it's already obvious that there is not much correlation between Soviet and PC doctrine, and with the situation in Europe Stalin is going to have to either change things to his liking or give up on them, hence Trotsky appearing :) ) that makes the Sino-Soviet one look downright amicable in comparison and I suspect that while the USSR will TRY and "realign" the PC into a puppet Communist state they will find very fast that doing so in the middle of NA will be a REALLY BAD idea very fast :)

    My take is that if they can prevent a military take over for about a decade (@1947) they are going to be a NA Nation to recon with and one the other nations fear and admire at the same time.

    Randy
     
  20. RanulfC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Really I can't see any NA Nation "siding" with anyone in Europe and going to war in the US over it. There's just not any real incentive to do so. Given a choice though Illinois and Indianan would probably go with the Empire State rather than Dixie as their backgrounds and character are more aligned in that direction. Dixie doesn't really have that much to offer and simply put given a more "conventional" war Dixie is going to be more a client British state than it's own nation and none of the PC, Texas or Empire State would want them to be expanded. (Again Appalachia is going to be a flash-point vis-a-vis all the above AND the ISA and I doubt Dixie even with British support could take them all on and gain the whole territory) And given the ethnic background in the ISA I'd say with a "conventional" European war for WWIII that the ISA itself would have great issue with what Germany does per OTL. Which means they would be hesitant to say the least in declaring war on ANYONE for Germany. Now if the Nazi's take over that's another story :)

    An aside but I'd see Deseret fighting to hold Arixio as a corridor to the Gulf of California. OTL they original proposed territory of "Deseret" extended all the way from the borders of Texas to San Diego and being honest those in charge of Deseret would never admit to ambitions of less than that so ceding their corridor to the sea (well a gulf anyway) would be something they would be less than willing to consider. And despite religious differences (they can be persuasive when they want to be) they could rope Mexico into supporting such a move to counter Texas and Hollywood in that area.

    Randy