WI: Modern Cherokee or Seminole state

In Lieu of the national championship last night(go noles), cool idea for a timeline.

Cherokees win court battle, Jackson decides to limit their territory. The state(North Georgia, east Tennessee, and the western edge of north and south Carolina) survives to the modern age after gaining multiple European allies, and fending off a southern led invasion?

Not very plausible, I know, but still a cool idea.
 
It would have many butterflies to how other Indian tribes might hold onto their territory and carve out homelands. I do not think it is possible given the feelings of the 1800's, but ignoring that, makes things come ACW quite interesting.
 

Brightflame

Banned
Butterflying the ARW or Andrew Jackson as President may be better for the tribes. There will definetly be conflict between settlers and the Cherokees.
 
I'm making the assumption that the trails of tears needs to be butterflied away, for a modern Indian tribe nation to exist.
 

Brightflame

Banned
I'm making the assumption that the trails of tears needs to be butterflied away, for a modern Indian tribe nation to exist.

Unless the Indian Territory coalesces somehow, or is rewarded with independence by the Confederacy after the war.
 
Forget European allies. Nobody is going to make enemies of the United States so they can have an Appalachian mini-state as an ally.

Here's how you can have Cherokee and Seminole states (not nations, states): Andrew Jackson dies in some duel or other and never becomes president. The state militias of Georgia, Tennessee and Florida fail to defeat the Cherokees and Seminoles, and whoever is president refuses to intervene.

The status of the Cherokee and Seminole areas remains unofficial until the Civil War, when they pull a West Virginia and join the Union as new states.

Unlikely, but the best I could come up with.
 
When I first read the title, I thought about nation-states, but very soon, it became clear that it should be US states...

What about a Navajo State? A Hopi one? A Sioux state? A Cheyenne state?
 
The problem is that none of the Indian nations had enough population, and so theyd be swamped by white settlers. Nor could they exclude whites if they are formally part of the US. Itd be like Oklahoma - supposedly Indian, but swamped by whites.

Could you have a state named Cherokee, say? Yes. Could the Cherokee be a perceptible minority? Yes. Could they be a majority? I really, really doubt it.
 
A Muskogee (Seminole/Creek) State might be easier, and not completely out of left field to end up with it.

You need the Creek Wars to be a tad worse, so most of the Creek/Muskogee end up in Florida and mix with the already established Seminole. As a result the Native population in Florida starts off a bit larger.

Across the Atlantic, Britain gets Florida as part of the Treaty of Vienna from Spain (Maybe Spain stayed a bit longer on France's side and gets punished, Florida at the time wasn't worth much to Spain so no big loss there anyways). If Florida becomes a British colony. (The US will likely still get West Florida earlier, but the Brits get East Florida).

The US will not antagonize Britain the way they did Spain to get Florida (not after the War of 1812). If Jackson goes about his way and antagonizes the British the way he did Spain, he will likely be arrested and face military trial. Under these circumstances you can avoid the Seminole Wars. Seminole/Muskogee numbers in Florida will then be much larger than OTL.

Later, Florida will serve as a "Southern Canada" for refugee slaves who will mix in with the Seminole. As a result the black Seminole population will also grow. The interior of Florida will likely be majority Muskogee (Creek/Seminole/black-Seminole) although major ports and plantations Tampa/Pensacola will likely have a white plurality.

The Southern States will not tolerate the existence of a "black/Indian" state just next door, and relationships with Britain will likely sour quite a bit. Boil up the Oregon border dispute earlier. And - if everything falls in place at the right time - the US might end up going to war against Britain (over the Oregon/Florida dispute) and Mexico (over Texas) at the same time (late 1830s most likely). A war it can't win.

Florida becomes a British dominion. Down the line it can either get its independence through a popular movement or simply recognize a shared heritage with the Muskogee.


Sorry read the title as nation state not US state. Well this is one answer
 

katchen

Banned
Actually, to make something like this work, you would need to have the British organize Native American nations into actual recognized colonies with royal governors or protectorates in 1763 with leaders whom the colonists need to get on their side for independence to work in 1776-81 and who send delegates both to the Continental Congress and to the Constitutional Convention. White settlement on their land can proceed only with their permission and much white settlement must leapfrog their lands to the Mississippi Valley and beyond by the 1790s. Intermarriage is common, however and "civilized "Native Americans take on most of American culture and Christianity--and African slavery in the South, though in a more relaxed fashion than Whites, since slaves can be initiated into the Keetoowah (Cherokee) or Muskogee (Creek) or Haundasenee Nations and eventually usually are. And Native American nations develop LARGE cotton plantations and eventually, their own mills.
 
Actually, to make something like this work, you would need to have the British organize Native American nations into actual recognized colonies with royal governors or protectorates in 1763 with leaders whom the colonists need to get on their side for independence to work in 1776-81 and who send delegates both to the Continental Congress and to the Constitutional Convention. White settlement on their land can proceed only with their permission and much white settlement must leapfrog their lands to the Mississippi Valley and beyond by the 1790s. Intermarriage is common, however and "civilized "Native Americans take on most of American culture and Christianity--and African slavery in the South, though in a more relaxed fashion than Whites, since slaves can be initiated into the Keetoowah (Cherokee) or Muskogee (Creek) or Haundasenee Nations and eventually usually are. And Native American nations develop LARGE cotton plantations and eventually, their own mills.

This is the best idea so far, but even this has some difficulties. If the former Indian-majority colonies were recognized as colonies attending the 1775 and Constitutional conventions, they would have to accept stipulations of the US Constitution. Even given the probablility that a US constitution in this TL would differ from ours, I doubt that it would prohibit people from moving from one state to another. If the Indian states could do this, why not Massachusetts? The end result might be a far looser USA - more of an alliance rather - with no Bill of Rights applying to all citizens of the confederation, and States being given a far broader right to enact laws and organize themselves how they saw fit. In the long term this wolud not be good for American independence
 
Actually, taking katchen's original idea and altering it to create an outcome more similar to what seems to be the intent of the OP, it would be interesiting to speculate on the situation if the hypothetical British Indian colonies stayed loyal to the crown, and with combined British and Indian effort they repulsed American efforts to invade and occupy them. In this situation, isn't it possible that any negotiation of a peace treaty granting the 13 colonies independence would draw the boundary of the new USA farther east and ensure the relative independence of the Indian nations as British crown colonies, and eventually lead to them being included in an eventual confederation with Canada (or an equivalent)?
 

Rstone4

Banned
Reading a book about the Cherokee called "The Trail of Tears" it presents a major issue with the idea of modernization. Many cherokee leaders didn't want it. The ones that did were also divided. The Cherokee "nation" was more of an alliance of like cultured peoples with common identity but not much more.

So if they managed to industrialize and build guns they still would have been swamped by Americans.

Unless you want to go way back and have a population boom or a modernization in the 1600s so they can keep up with the english, spanish, french, rather than become depenant upon their trade, then there really isn't a way to do this.

If the cherokee say "we don't want your steel blades, but we will take some of those forges and mining tools..." And build their own iron works in the 17th century and then they follow a western tract of development then sure.

They would conquer and assimilate their neighbors, gain population, grow strong, and they would be a whole new country in the american south east. Georgia, Florida, the Carolinas would never have been colonized and very likely the American Revolution would not have happened as the colonists would accept British taxes and soldiers to keep the Cherokee held back.

The other way to do that is radically change European history to either not have them be christian or change Christianity to be more accepting of non christian peoples. That can be done, but it changes so many things in doing it.
 
I would say the best way to create a Seminole nation is to keep Florida Spanish for as long as possible. Do that, and perhaps they are annexed during the Spanish American war (assuming it happens at the same time, or at all). It would create an incredibly interesting and diverse culture, assuming slaves continue to escape south as they did OTL. I don't know that the Spanish would leave the Seminole alone, but they would probably fair better than they did with Sharp Knife Jackson.
 
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