WI: MIRAGE as NATO standard combat aircraft.

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
What events would allow Dassault Mirage's I's, III's, F1's and 2000's become NATO standard combat aircraft from the early '60's until 2000 in much the same way as F-16's became the virtual standard aircraft from the 80's.

Germany and Italy have to operate them.

Plus any country can be allowed to manufacture them themselves.

Cheers filers
 
Germany and Italy have to operate them.

The Mirage looks a better bet than the Starfighter on a lot of levels, but unfortunately the Luftwaffe wanted a tactical fighter that could deliver tactical nuclear weapons against a Soviet armoured attack.

The French absolutely refused to share the necessary information with the Germans, while the Americans were more than happy to, not least because they were also providing the nuclear weapons.
 
The Mirage looks a better bet than the Starfighter on a lot of levels, but unfortunately the Luftwaffe wanted a tactical fighter that could deliver tactical nuclear weapons against a Soviet armoured attack.

The French absolutely refused to share the necessary information with the Germans, while the Americans were more than happy to, not least because they were also providing the nuclear weapons.
Hardly surprising - the entire French nuclear programme was aimed at Germany*

*Quite literally - the plan was to wait until the Red Army was on the French border and so deep in West Germany and then hit them with a large number of tactical nuclear weapons as a warning not to come any further. The fact that this allowed them to turn Germany into a glowing crater was no doubt a side benefit to the plan.
 
it Almost happened
The German Luftwaffe look for multi-role fighter-bomber. that drop a atomic bomb
Now they look and found the Mirage III ideal for the Purpose.
Unfortunate, Marcel Dassault refused to sell the Mirage III to Germany, because he survived barely the Nazi concentration camp Buchenwald during WW2.

German Minister of defense Strauß took the Lockheed F-104 instead, a high altitude interceptor that became a inconvenient low level multi-role fighter-bomber...
Although bad rumor claim that Lockheed outbid Dassault on amount bribes to Franz Joseph Strauß

Let assume that rumor is true* and Marcel Dassault manage to outfit Lockheed and German Luftwaffe buy 1122 Mirage III
with Option build under license by consortium of European companies (German Messerschmitt/MBB, Dornier, Italy Fiat, the Netherland Fokker, and Belgium SABCA.)
what is needed because Dassault had not capacity to build so many Mirage III in short time.
with benefit that Netherland Belgium and Italy would buy also Mirage III

Also was proposal of Dassault to British RAF for Mirage IV Bomber as alternative to cancel TSR.2 bomber
Here BAe and Dassault would build 100 Mirage IV-K Bomber with British engine and avionic of TSR.2
So why not a similar deal with Mirage III with British engine and avionic ?

and there was proposal for Mirage IIIW build in USA under license by Boeing !

*
next Lockheed, Dassault Aviation has also pay bribes to sell there Aircraft, like to ruling Belgium Socialist Party for package deal for 106 Mirage 5B for Belgium Air force.
 
Hardly surprising - the entire French nuclear programme was aimed at Germany*

*Quite literally - the plan was to wait until the Red Army was on the French border and so deep in West Germany and then hit them with a large number of tactical nuclear weapons as a warning not to come any further. The fact that this allowed them to turn Germany into a glowing crater was no doubt a side benefit to the plan.

Yes, but we do like to pretend that all has been sweetness and light in Franco-German relations since 1945.

Another draw back with the Mirage is the long take off run associated with pure deltas. You can't fit flaps, because they will just act like elevators. I can't find any figures (google really isn't helping) but if the Mirage's takeoff and landing runs were significantly longer than the Starfighter's this could have placed serious limitations on the Luftwaffe's plan to use Autobahns as emergency runways. Witness this hilarious piece of slapstick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxdZIMy8zJc
 
If Mirage III is adopted by more NATO members earlier what does that mean for future cooperation? Would these operators (I'm thinking at least Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, rest of continent not sure but possible, UK not because bloody frogs and US not because 'Murica fuck yeah!). Once it becomes obsolete would these operators come together to develop successor, OTL Tornado?

And what would this mean for foreign sales? It would be less of a niche market but with more being produced cost would go down as well.
 
Another draw back with the Mirage is the long take off run associated with pure deltas. You can't fit flaps, because they will just act like elevators. I can't find any figures (google really isn't helping) but if the Mirage's takeoff and landing runs were significantly longer than the Starfighter's this could have placed serious limitations on the Luftwaffe's plan to use Autobahns as emergency runways. Witness this hilarious piece of slapstick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxdZIMy8zJc

Actually, it appears the Mirage had a shorter landing distance. According to http://www.mirage-jet.com/COMPAR_1/compar_1.htm the 2000 had a (assuming ground roll) distance of 2000' (I would imagine the Mirage III wouldn't be too different), while http://www.airplanedriver.net/study/f104.htm quotes an F-104 ground roll of 2500'. A delta wing is better at producing drag for slower landing speeds, while the thing-winged F-104 flew final at 170(!) knots.
 
Actually, it appears the Mirage had a shorter landing distance. According to http://www.mirage-jet.com/COMPAR_1/compar_1.htm the 2000 had a (assuming ground roll) distance of 2000' (I would imagine the Mirage III wouldn't be too different), while http://www.airplanedriver.net/study/f104.htm quotes an F-104 ground roll of 2500'. A delta wing is better at producing drag for slower landing speeds, while the thing-winged F-104 flew final at 170(!) knots.

Interesting.

The figures I found are:

Starfighter - 1,219 metres (you can find it here - http://www.rolfferch.de/F104G/Zipper_AirfieldRequirements.pdf)

Saab Draken - 774 metres.

As for the Mirage 2000, it has 2 small canards fitted behind the air intakes as well as full span leading edge slats.
Mirage_2000_of_Hellenic_Air_Force.JPEG


The Mirage III (as far as I can tell) didn't have either slats or canards.
 
For what they did with them, should have bought the Douglas A-4

A lot cheaper to buy than F-104 or Mirage III, enough money to get some all weather fighters

Multi-role isn't always best bet
 
For what they did with them, should have bought the Douglas A-4

A lot cheaper to buy than F-104 or Mirage III, enough money to get some all weather fighters

Multi-role isn't always best bet


The Douglas A-4 and Saab Draken - were Favors of Belgium Air force to replace older aircraft in 1970s
but ruling socialist party had other ideas for 106 Mirage 5, thanks to Dassault Aviation "generous consideration"
Same for combat Helikopters, Belgium Air force wanted MBB, they got unusable Agusta Helicopters, thank to socialist party who go "generous consideration" by Agusta...
and there was something with Lockheed also...

in 1997 the entire top of socialist party was sentenced for that, in the biggest corruption lawsuit that kingdom ever had seen...
 
Let's say Marcel Dassault did overcome his distrust of the Germans and allowed the Mirage III to be turned into the standard NATO fighter.

Besides a huge boost to the French aerospace industry, it would mean the when the Mirage F1 became available in the middle 1970's, it would be adopted all over Europe, giving European air forces a modern frontline fighter that would last until just after 2000, when something like the Rafale starts replacing it (there would likely not be a Mirage 2000 model).
 

Delta Force

Banned
Let's say Marcel Dassault did overcome his distrust of the Germans and allowed the Mirage III to be turned into the standard NATO fighter.

Besides a huge boost to the French aerospace industry, it would mean the when the Mirage F1 became available in the middle 1970's, it would be adopted all over Europe, giving European air forces a modern frontline fighter that would last until just after 2000, when something like the Rafale starts replacing it (there would likely not be a Mirage 2000 model).

That's not necessarily the case. The Mirage F1 is somewhat between the F-5 and F-16 in terms of aerial combat performance. The Mirage III, Mirage 2000, F-4 Phantom, and potentially the Panavia Tornado could be options for countries seeking aircraft with more rounded multi-role performance, or improved air combat capabilities.
 
There were other Mirage aircraft too. There was also the Mirage G, comparable to the Panavia Tornado, and the Mirage 4000, comparable to the F-15. There was even the VTOL Mirage IIIV.

As far as the Luftwaffe ws concerned, VTOL was very much the way to go, parti cularly given the BRD's proximity to the Warsaw Pact. The German aircraft industry developed a couple of VTOL fighters, as well as a VTOL transport. Unfortunately, as well as being too expensive they all suffered from the same design drawback as the Mirage Balzac (and every other VTOL aircraft in the world except the Harrier). They used specialist lift engines which were nothing more than dead weight in normal flight. Using no fewer than six engines for hovering flight, all of which would have to be monitored and controlled by the pilot without the aid of a digital engine controll unit would never have been a practical operational system. Lose one engine at that critical phase of flight and you lose the aircraft.
 
That's not necessarily the case. The Mirage F1 is somewhat between the F-5 and F-16 in terms of aerial combat performance. The Mirage III, Mirage 2000, F-4 Phantom, and potentially the Panavia Tornado could be options for countries seeking aircraft with more rounded multi-role performance, or improved air combat capabilities.

Mirage IIIE, the multi-role variant that was equipped with better avionics, came later than the F-104G that the Luftwaffe wants for the bombing role.

The problem of French weapon development is that French aircraft usually came to the market at least 5 years later than their equivalent counter-parts in the US arsenal, and with less advance avionics. The US developers, enjoy scale of economy and technological leads thanks to the large US market and thank tank assistance. Also, the US gov't also pave the way of US weapons into foreign service by providing military aid.
 
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