WI: Ming dynasty escaped to Formosa

The Qing gradually made the Ming smaller smaller until it disappeared.
What if the Ming dynasty, fearing such, decided to flee to Formosa, like IOTL ROC? Would it be able to defend itself from the Qing navy? Would Qing choose to not have naval isolationism?
 
The Qing gradually made the Ming smaller smaller until it disappeared.
What if the Ming dynasty, fearing such, decided to flee to Formosa, like IOTL ROC? Would it be able to defend itself from the Qing navy? Would Qing choose to not have naval isolationism?

They did, although pretty much just puppets of Koxinga.
 
The Ming did flee to Formosa IOTL.
They lasted there for years (1661 - 1683) until a Qing expedition brought the island to heel.

EDIT: Apparently the Qing expedition was sent out after the Ming remnants fell into a succession crisis that led to a civil war. Perhaps we can ask what would have happened if the Ming remnants had a clear succession.
 
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The Ming did flee to Formosa IOTL.
They lasted there for years (1661 - 1683) until a Qing expedition brought the island to heel.

EDIT: Apparently the Qing expedition was sent out after the Ming remnants fell into a succession crisis that led to a civil war. Perhaps we can ask what would have happened if the Ming remnants had a clear succession.
yes, seems a better question.
 
The Ming did flee to Formosa IOTL.
They lasted there for years (1661 - 1683) until a Qing expedition brought the island to heel.

EDIT: Apparently the Qing expedition was sent out after the Ming remnants fell into a succession crisis that led to a civil war. Perhaps we can ask what would have happened if the Ming remnants had a clear succession.
But the succession was fairly clear. After the Chongzhen Emperor died, the succession would pass to his sons in order of age. But those three sons weren't present (we're not sure what happened to them), so the succession should fall on his nephews (but there weren't any), and then to his cousins. The most senior cousin would be the Prince of Fu, Zhu Yousong, who historically did become the Southern Ming claimant as the Hongguang Emperor. Even the most famous official of the Southern Ming, Shi Kefa, recognized that the Prince of Fu had the most valid claim due to his bloodline, even if the prince did have a thoroughly irresolute character. By contrast, the claims of the Longwu Emperor (who first gave a noble title to Zheng Chenggong) are ridiculously distant, and are positively absurd when you look at the number of princes who are of much closer relation to the last Emperor.

The terrible leadership of the Hongguang Emperor was actually what persuaded the Southern Ming officials to get rid of the official line of succession and find a worthy prince to become Emperor. So if you want a Southern Ming under a worthier candidate, you'd need a more flexible and less clear line of succession, one that allows the enthronement of the most meritorious prince and not the most senior. Also, competence or not, there's no legal argument that allows skipping over the Crown Prince in favor of some other candidate. The issues of identification and location are more important than the actual line of succession. So if the Crown Prince is located, there will be zero succession issues.

Note, there's also the issue of identification. After the fall of Beijing, there was one person who were executed by the Hongguang government for claiming to be the last Emperor's son. We're not sure if he was lying or not.
 
I'd prefer a situation where the Ming became the Southern Song and kept most of the territory south of the Yangtze.
 
I'd prefer a situation where the Ming became the Southern Song and kept most of the territory south of the Yangtze.

Well, I thought the Ming might survive since the Qing enforced the notorious seclusion plan (bring all people 50 miles inwards, trade illegal).
 
I'd prefer a situation where the Ming became the Southern Song and kept most of the territory south of the Yangtze.

That's an interesting idea although how long it will last will definitely depends on the capability of whoever become the emperor.
 
Koxinga's Nanning didn't last very long and I wouldn't expect different management to do much better. Taiwan doesn't have the strategic depth. If they also had The Philippines it would be another story.

Qing vs Ming naval war with arms supplied by the Dutch and Spanish would be interesting though. Even if the Ming lost at the end, the Qing would have a new found appreciation for naval power projection.
 
I wrote a TL once (not here, though...) in which Kublai Khan's invasion of Japan succeeded (in a rather messy way, with the Daimyo & Samurai classes basically wiped out), the Ming replacement of the Yuan still happened more or less as per OTL but with the Ming Empire therefore including Japan, the Ming leadership retreated to Japan rather than Formosa when they lost control of the mainland to the Qing, and they then did well enough there that in the mid-19th century -- having been more open to Western ideas & technology than either the Qing or OTL Japan -- they were able to launch a successful invasion of southern China.
(That TL stopped c.1900AD, if I remember correctly, at which point the effective border between the two Chinas ran roughly along the Yangtze.)
 
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Koxinga's Nanning didn't last very long and I wouldn't expect different management to do much better. Taiwan doesn't have the strategic depth. If they also had The Philippines it would be another story.

Qing vs Ming naval war with arms supplied by the Dutch and Spanish would be interesting though. Even if the Ming lost at the end, the Qing would have a new found appreciation for naval power projection.

Koxinga died at the prime age of 37, he could very well lived long enough to carry out his planned subjugation of Luzon.
 
Koxinga died at the prime age of 37, he could very well lived long enough to carry out his planned subjugation of Luzon.
so lets say the Ming dynasty moved to Taiwan and the Philippines.
what about the Spanish then? where would they colonize?
or would they subjugate the Ming?
 
so lets say the Ming dynasty moved to Taiwan and the Philippines.
what about the Spanish then? where would they colonize?
or would they subjugate the Ming?

What are you asking?

I should note that Koxinga had a lot of trouble takingTaiwan, which was much closer to his forces than Luzon was. How does he manage to seize the Spanish fortifications?
 
What are you asking?

I should note that Koxinga had a lot of trouble takingTaiwan, which was much closer to his forces than Luzon was. How does he manage to seize the Spanish fortifications?
probably my misled belief that the Spanish wouldn'tve colonized the Philippines by the time the Ming fell.
 
What are you asking?

I should note that Koxinga had a lot of trouble takingTaiwan, which was much closer to his forces than Luzon was. How does he manage to seize the Spanish fortifications?

probably my misled belief that the Spanish wouldn'tve colonized the Philippines by the time the Ming fell.

Perhaps he could get some land from the rebels in Luzon(any one knows Andres Malong) at that time in exchange for his help expelling the Spanish like what the Chinese did at Lanfang in Borneo, I think the Manila area could end up being given to the Chinese.
 
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