WI: Messier East-West Schism

What if, instead of there being roughly a line between Catholic and Orthodox territories after the Great Schism, there are little enclaves and enclaves scattered around the Christian world? Like, the schism is about half and half with some rulers even in France and England deciding to go Orthodox, and some little realms near Armenia going Catholic, and the whole mess being a massive clusterhell.

How would this affect East-west relations? What about the Crusades? Any other effects?

I think that overall there would be crackdowns by the most powerful rulers on the dissenters, but who would go to which branch is beyond me.
 
You'd need to radically change the fundamentals of Christianity in the west for this to work. By the time of the Schism, common western doctrinal and liturgical practices had too many finicky differences from those in the east - for ex, the Greeks didn't like that westerners used unleavened bread for the Eucharist, and they definitely didn't like the Filioque being used. You'd need to arrange history in such a way that there are genuinely pockets of eastern Christians in power outside the Balkans, and at that point what you really get is a weaker Papacy and potentially no reason for a schism at all.
 
I'm not really sure this is possible- the Schism was more of a recognition and formalisation of a split that had already emerged than the start of it, and between the missionary activity that brought Christianity to places such as Britain or Germany and the difference between the Byzantine Empire's control over the church and the Papacy's independence from Western Empires you've not really got any means for areas on the 'other side' to actually switch over.

You could have more Nestorian, Coptic or Arian style groups floating around who are considered independent from both though.
 
It would likely have to be a different theological dispute than the filioque which causes the Schism then. The filioque actually made its way through almost every part of the West before being adopted by Rome. Maybe based on one of the Imperial attempts to reconcile with the Miaphysites is Syria and Egypt.

The problem is that lines of communication would have to stay open between Rome/Constantinople and whoever had stayed in communion with them, and that both Rome and Constantinople would have to be tolerant of the inevitable cultural/theological differences which would exist and spring up. That part seems unlikely.

Maybe in a no Islam TL, Carthage goes Byzantine, even if they can't hold it, but a larger portion of Syriac Christians enter into communion with Rome, which could be sponsored by the Sassanids if they're in control of the region and think it would make it harder for the ERE to project influence there.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
It would likely have to be a different theological dispute than the filioque which causes the Schism then. The filioque actually made its way through almost every part of the West before being adopted by Rome. Maybe based on one of the Imperial attempts to reconcile with the Miaphysites is Syria and Egypt.

The problem is that lines of communication would have to stay open between Rome/Constantinople and whoever had stayed in communion with them, and that both Rome and Constantinople would have to be tolerant of the inevitable cultural/theological differences which would exist and spring up. That part seems unlikely.

Maybe in a no Islam TL, Carthage goes Byzantine, even if they can't hold it, but a larger portion of Syriac Christians enter into communion with Rome, which could be sponsored by the Sassanids if they're in control of the region and think it would make it harder for the ERE to project influence there.

With no Islam, it's more likely that Constantinople would hold a better position in Italy, likely butterflying the Schism.
 
With no Islam, it's more likely that Constantinople would hold a better position in Italy, likely butterflying the Schism.

Oh it's certainly more likely, but far from inevitable. Any number of things could keep Constantinople from being able to effectively project power in Italy. A more powerful Persia would be one of them.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
Oh it's certainly more likely, but far from inevitable. Any number of things could keep Constantinople from being able to effectively project power in Italy. A more powerful Persia would be one of them.

All Constantinople needs is a window of a few years, which they're likely to get at the end of the last Byzantine-Sassanid War, and they could retake at least most of Italy. Hell, all they have to do is consolidate Southern Italy since they still own Rome at the beginning of the 7th century and would still hold it until 751 AD. They would also hold parts of Southern Italy until the 1070s.

In a world where Constantinople maintains control of the Med, retaking and holding Italy becomes by far the most likely outcome.
 
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