WI: Medieval Poland Centralizes

Delvestius

Banned
My question is, what if medieval Poland centralized into an absolute monarchy around the fifteenth century, leading to less of an influence of the Szlachta noblemen and a greater chance of Poland becoming a belligerent force in eastern Europe? Would Lithuania be incorporated sooner, and is it possible for Poland to even score some victories against the Russian Principalities, particularly Novgorod?

Is it possible for Poland to become the eminent Eastern Slavic power (as opposed to a Russian state), maintaining an expansive empire from the Oder to the Urals, and eventually expanding into Siberia?
 
That'd be a pretty early development. France took another century and a half, for instance.

On what basis is the state centralizing?

As in, what are the kings using to shore up royal power?

That's going to influence what kind of policies are pursued - a monarchy able to practice truly autocratic (as in, unhindered) rule will be very dependent on the individual kings.

And OTL, if I'm not mistaken, Poland-Lithuania did succeed at time against the Russians - not sure this would necessarily make that more so. I'd be more inclined to look at the stuff Poland has lost westwardly if I was in the position the kings are TTL, but that may be me.
 

Delvestius

Banned
That'd be a pretty early development. France took another century and a half, for instance.

It took another century and a half for it to be finalized, but it started around this time, and that's what I mean for Poland - At least point, centralization begins to happen.

On what basis is the state centralizing?

As in, what are the kings using to shore up royal power?

I couldn't really tell you, don't know much about old Polish politics other than there was a lack of centralization and striking against other countries at crucial times (mostly because internal division made this difficult). I'm sure there's a credible reason floating about somewhere, though.[/QUOTE]
 
It took another century and a half for it to be finalized, but it started around this time, and that's what I mean for Poland - At least point, centralization begins to happen.

Ah, gotcha. Maybe keep the Piasts around, or at least male line Angevins. That ought to allow for Poland's kings to be in a better position to demand concessions rather than be the ones giving them.

I couldn't really tell you, don't know much about old Polish politics other than there was a lack of centralization and striking against other countries at crucial times (mostly because internal division made this difficult). I'm sure there's a credible reason floating about somewhere, though.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you can certainly say what you're trying to do here - Prussia and France are very different states, say.
 
Is it possible for Poland to become the eminent Eastern Slavic power (as opposed to a Russian state), maintaining an expansive empire from the Oder to the Urals, and eventually expanding into Siberia?

If Poland can do that and outcomete Moscowia they will become the eminent Slavic power and with the "centre" of Slavdom further west we might not see as distinct dispersal into West-East-South.
 
Ah, gotcha. Maybe keep the Piasts around, or at least male line Angevins. That ought to allow for Poland's kings to be in a better position to demand concessions rather than be the ones giving them.
There are still Piasts in Silesia who survived even after the extinction of the Jagellonians in fact before they got extinct one of them became a candidate for King of Poland-Lithuania, I was thinking how could they get the Polish throne back when the Jagellonians get extinct, perhaps they could marry into Jagellonians and inherit both the thrones of Poland and Lithuania when the Jagellonians go extinct.
 
Personally I always wished Casimir III the Great had had a legal son....

As far as Silesian Piast goes, when the Jagiellon dynasty ended, they were for generations vassals of the Bohemian kings. Not someone Polish noblemen would have had accepted.
 
Personally I always wished Casimir III the Great had had a legal son....

As far as Silesian Piast goes, when the Jagiellon dynasty ended, they were for generations vassals of the Bohemian kings. Not someone Polish noblemen would have had accepted.

I think Casimir III would have legal sons if he marries Bonne/Judith of Bohemia and possibly they would have many children since she gave birth to many sons with her OTL Husband...the Piasts lost the throne of Poland did not regain it after Louis of Hungary became the King of Poland because they were not united and they themselves are weakened and lost their prestige on the nobles, the Masovian Piasts weren't able to be elected to the Polish throne.

I have written a scenario where in Henry Probus survived and united Silesia, Lesser Poland and Greater Poland under him.
 
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Thande

Donor
If Poland can do that and outcomete Moscowia they will become the eminent Slavic power and with the "centre" of Slavdom further west we might not see as distinct dispersal into West-East-South.

I always thought that was an interesting possibility, though religious differences might prevent Poland from being seen as a leadership figure by the Russian states.
 
There are still Piasts in Silesia who survived even after the extinction of the Jagellonians in fact before they got extinct one of them became a candidate for King of Poland-Lithuania, I was thinking how could they get the Polish throne back when the Jagellonians get extinct, perhaps they could marry into Jagellonians and inherit both the thrones of Poland and Lithuania when the Jagellonians go extinct.

Sure, but they're not on the throne - and by the point Poland is looking for kings by election is well after the POD.

Might be an interesting scenario, but not something that can make Poland centralize/autocratize from the 15th century on.
 
Poland centralizing and Poland dominating Russia are two separate subjects. Novgorod was certainly weak enough, but an aggressive stance towards it would drive it straight to Moscow's alliance. Same thing with the Great Horde - the more the Polish/Lithuanians (if there is still such a thing) succeed against Moscow, the more likely they are to support Moscow over Lithuania (and the more Muscovite grand princes would be okay with the idea).

PLC only got to compete with Moscow on roughly even terms because of the Mongols and the way Lithuania expanded east (which if anything is a counter-model of Russian expansion for Poland - Lithuania becoming strongly catholic killed its eastern expansion for good.)

I'd argue that a stronger Poland doesn't actually need the east all that much. It's basically more of the same what Poland has (grain), instead of what it needs (towns and crafts). Russia's big wealth tickets are salt, fur and some cottage industry activity in Novgorod and Vladimir areas. All of them require linking enormous territory into Polish economic systems. Basically, not as good as Silesia or Bohemia.
 
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You need Poland to have a hereditary monarchy instead of them being elected. Only the monarch will have the reason to centralize the state. Having a hereditary monarchy gives both long term incentive to win concessions on behalf of future kings, but also gets rid of prospective kings giving away concessions to the nobility simply in order to be elected in the first place.

The process of centralization in Europe basically followed this pattern:

1) Hereditary monarchy
2) Alliance between the monarch and the bourgeosie against the nobility
3) Large independent revenues of the monarch compared to his subjects
4) Establishment of a bureaucracy paid by the king instead of relying on feudal courtiers
5) Eliminating "over mighty" nobles that are rivals to the king
6) Establishment of permanent gunpowder armies lead by the king that replaces feudal levies
7) A lucky series of strong kings for several generations that are able to build on prior successes and avoid weak kings that would squander previous success
 
You need Poland to have a hereditary monarchy instead of them being elected. Only the monarch will have the reason to centralize the state. Having a hereditary monarchy gives both long term incentive to win concessions on behalf of future kings, but also gets rid of prospective kings giving away concessions to the nobility simply in order to be elected in the first place.

The process of centralization in Europe basically followed this pattern:

1) Hereditary monarchy
2) Alliance between the monarch and the bourgeosie against the nobility
3) Large independent revenues of the monarch compared to his subjects
4) Establishment of a bureaucracy paid by the king instead of relying on feudal courtiers
5) Eliminating "over mighty" nobles that are rivals to the king
6) Establishment of permanent gunpowder armies lead by the king that replaces feudal levies
7) A lucky series of strong kings for several generations that are able to build on prior successes and avoid weak kings that would squander previous success

Then what is also required is Silesia and a propor incorporation of Prussia, at least the western part - for the revenues and bourgeosie.

Could you provide examples of this process in other European countries? Say, France, Sweden?
 
Re

I do not think it is necessary to incorporate Prussia and/or Silesia - would be enough to legislate against excessive powers of the nobility and help the mercantile class...
 
While the scions of the House of Piast survived uintil the early Eighteenth Century as counts in Bohemia and Silesia, they were under the control of the Austrian Hapsburgs, and never serious candidates for election. The last of the independent Piast Dukes was Kujawy, which died out in the mail line in 1568.

I am currently hashing out an AH novel about a Late-Sixteenth Century War of Religion in Poland involving two different Catholic factions and two different Protestant factions. (The POD is 1483 in England, long story) One of the Catholic (Called the Orthodox faction in contemporary propoganda) factions is the OTL last Piast Duke of Kujawy, who married a daughter of Ivan the Terrible who survived ITTL. Other factions are a Protestant Hapsburg Austria, an alliance of the Kettlers and Hohenzollerens, (the other Protestant faction) and a clique of southern and southeastern Polish nobles who have abolished the Cossacks and are opperating with Papal aproval.
 
While the scions of the House of Piast survived uintil the early Eighteenth Century as counts in Bohemia and Silesia, they were under the control of the Austrian Hapsburgs, and never serious candidates for election. The last of the independent Piast Dukes was Kujawy, which died out in the mail line in 1568.

I am currently hashing out an AH novel about a Late-Sixteenth Century War of Religion in Poland involving two different Catholic factions and two different Protestant factions. (The POD is 1483 in England, long story) One of the Catholic (Called the Orthodox faction in contemporary propoganda) factions is the OTL last Piast Duke of Kujawy, who married a daughter of Ivan the Terrible who survived ITTL. Other factions are a Protestant Hapsburg Austria, an alliance of the Kettlers and Hohenzollerens, (the other Protestant faction) and a clique of southern and southeastern Polish nobles who have abolished the Cossacks and are opperating with Papal aproval.

Mazovia not Kujawy.
 
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