WI: Meade dies at Gettysburg.

[Admiral Halsey]

Bumping .

 

[Redhand]

For Meade to die at this point, the battle's result wouldn't change, but the army would likely capture less men and supplies on the retreat. Slocum would by seniority take command, but Lincoln would not keep him around for long and someone more suitable would take control.

Sedgwick was very popular but not very talented, McClellan is always hanging around, and maybe if he gets another chance he might do better, but likely, Sherman takes control. He was not very busy in Mississippi at the time, and Grant could not be spared.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

For Meade to die at this point, the battle's result wouldn't change, but the army would likely capture less men and supplies on the retreat. Slocum would by seniority take command, but Lincoln would not keep him around for long and someone more suitable would take control.

Sedgwick was very popular but not very talented, McClellan is always hanging around, and maybe if he gets another chance he might do better, but likely, Sherman takes control. He was not very busy in Mississippi at the time, and Grant could not be spared.

Sherman in the East? Now that'd be a TL!

 

[mudhead]

So let's say that during Pickets Charge a lucky shot from a Confederate soldier strikes Meade and kills him. Who would replace him as commander of the AotP? Does Grant get the job almost a year early or does someone else get it? How would this effect the rest of the war and when does it end now?

Meade nearly was killed at the start of the bombardment; the HQ cottage was badly hit, sixteen horses killed, and Butterfield wounded - they:

"..finally transferred in a body all the way to Powers Hill, where Slocum had set up the night before. Here at last they found a measure of the safety they had been seeking, but they were about as effectively removed from what was happening back on Cemetery ridge, or was about to happen, as if they had taken refuge on one of the mountains of the moon."
​

Shelby Foote: Fredericksburg to Meridian, p543, Pimlico pb ed

Essentially, Meade took no part in the defence of the centre of the line - it was Hancock, Stannard (commanding the attached I Corps Brigade), the artillery commander Henry Hunt, and the 26 regiments on the spot who dealt with Lee's attack.

When Meade eventually arrived, he thought the horde of prisoners was actually an enemy breakthrough.

Any POD would have to be after the assault of 3 July was broken - Meade's state of health made no difference at the time.

​

 

[WXL1815]

I suppose Halleck is senior and knocking about in Washington being irritating. Somehow I can't see a westerner sent directly east to take command. John Pope is still an unpleasant memory. How senior is Henry Hunt? If offered I suspect he would turn it down.

Speaking of seniority I am always irritated by the absence of an "army list" that will give me a list of seniorities for each year of the war.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

I suppose Halleck is senior and knocking about in Washington being irritating. Somehow I can't see a westerner sent directly east to take command. John Pope is still an unpleasant memory. How senior is Henry Hunt? If offered I suspect he would turn it down.

Speaking of seniority I am always irritated by the absence of an "army list" that will give me a list of seniorities for each year of the war.

Wasn't Halleck sent to Washington to keep him away from the front lines?

 

[Anaxagoras]

As unlikely as it would be, a good TL would be for George Thomas to take command of the Army of the Potomac. Thomas vs. Lee would be a epic battle. Thomas would likely do much better than Grant did; he certainly would not have launched such a stupid attack as Grant did at Cold Harbor.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

As unlikely as it would be, a good TL would be for George Thomas to take command of the Army of the Potomac. Thomas vs. Lee would be a epic battle. Thomas would likely do much better than Grant did; he certainly would not have launched such a stupid attack as Grant did at Cold Harbor.

I'll admit Thomas wouldn't do worse then Grant did that's for sure but since he hasn't had his famous moment at Chickamauga where he pretty much saved the AotC from a complete rout it's as you said unlikely.

 

[usertron2020]

The next guy in direct command after Meade was Sedgewick, i think. And he was passed over in favor of Meade.

Sedgewick was actually a good commander in defense, and the best they had after all the other commanders fell.

While the Gettysburg Campaign itself would turn out more or less as it did IOTL (none of the corps commanders would be any more aggressive in pursuit of Lee than Meade was), the butterflies would be pretty big. One thing is for sure, though, and that is that Meade will become the great Union martyr of the war.

Agreed. Albert Sidney Johnston fell in a battle that was lost. No other army commander on either side would have fallen in a battle that was won.

The best corps commanders have been wiped out by Gettysburg - Reynolds is dead, Hancock is badly injured and now you have added Meade to the mix. Hooker and McClellan are politically impossible. Sickles would be a horrendous choice even if he wasn't injured.

Sedgwick,[1]
Slocum, Sykes and Howard are all singularly unimpressive. Warren might be ok in a commanding position and he was at the peak of his reputation at Gettysburg. But Warren would not work well with Grant when the time came. Humphrey is pugnacious if nothing else.

1] No. Sedgwick does NOT deserve to be thrown into that mix. He may not have been up there with the others, but he was at worst a "B+ student" compared to the names listed here after. "A-" on the defense.

If Grant does go East after vicksburg, who replaces him in the West. Although we would all like it to be Sherman, I'll be honest when i think the seniority was Rosecrans.

Problem: Grant would insist on Sherman replacing him, and Rosecrans was notorious for not subordinating himself.

I know the general feeling was that the army wanted McClellan back, but politics is going to keep him away.

The army is not a democracy.

Maybe Hooker? Course Grant might keep him out east though. Also if Grant does come east would he after getting his bearings start a campaign to at least be in Virginia before winter falls?

The better campaigning season for Grant was in the Deep South in the Fall and Winter, as OTL.

Hooker had his shot. No commander of the AotP lost as badly as Hooker, and mainly it was a case of Hooker beating Hooker. IMO he redeemed himself as a corps commander at Lookout Mountain, not as an independent army commander.

 

[dmg86]

Actually Thomas was offered army command in 1862 but declined it due to the army being in the middle of a campaign which led to perryville in 1862 so I could see him offered it.

 

[Kevin in Indy]

If you take as a given that Meade dies in the preparatory bombardment on July 3 (easiest PoD to visualize), then there should be time to inform the corps commanders. Of the seven Union corps commanders who started the battle, five are still on the field. I think Sedgwick is the most senior, although the attack is coming right at Hancock. I had thought that Hancock had a somewhat official designation as commander of the army's center. If Hancock is then in his turn wounded and removed from active command, then I think command would certainly go to Sedgwick as the senior man still on the battlefield. (I also assume that Butterfield, though chief of staff, is not considered even if he comes out unwounded because that's not his strength.)

I agree that the action on July 3 pretty much goes as in OTL. Further, I don't think that the pursuit battle after Gettysburg goes much differently - the determining factor is not the commander but instead the state of the armies - they are both exhausted as of late afternoon on July 3. It might be interesting to write a storyline about how the Army of the Potomac is howling for blood after Meade falls, but I don't see how they can accomplish much more than they did given what they have.

I would guess that Sedgwick is given a shot at continued command, does not deliver a knockout blow to Lee, and is made subordinate to Grant at more or less the same time and with more or less the same results (although he probably does not get his entry in the dictionary under "ironic death."

 

[Evan]

Further, I don't think that the pursuit battle after Gettysburg goes much differently - the determining factor is not the commander but instead the state of the armies - they are both exhausted as of late afternoon on July 3. It might be interesting to write a storyline about how the Army of the Potomac is howling for blood after Meade falls, but I don't see how they can accomplish much more than they did given what they have.

What about Lincoln's repeated OTL pleas for Meade to attack while Lee was waiting several days for the Potomac to subside so he could cross? The strategic situation was almost perfect for the North; a more aggressive commander (given a non-exhausted army, at least) could have made a huge difference.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

What about Lincoln's repeated OTL pleas for Meade to attack while Lee was waiting several days for the Potomac to subside so he could cross? The strategic situation was almost perfect for the North; a more aggressive commander (given a non-exhausted army, at least) could have made a huge difference.

You know I didn't think about that. With Meade gone whoever is in charge would be almost certainly more willing to attack. The AoV might get destroyed then and there and end the war.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

So let's say that during Pickets Charge a lucky shot from a Confederate soldier strikes Meade and kills him.

More likely, a shot from Lee's preliminary bombardment hits Meade's command post, which was on the rear slope of Cemetery Ridge. As Lee's guns fired, they dug in their rails and elevated, causing their fire to pass over the ridge. Meade was chased out of his post by shot landing nearby.

Who would replace him as commander of the AotP?

The senior corps commander, probably Sedgwick. Not Grant; he's still busy in Mississippi.

Sedgwick is regarded as competent, but not especially aggressive.

 

[WXL1815]

If I recall correctly Meade and Warren came under very accurate sniper fire after Picketts Charge, though whether it was that day or the next I cannot remember.

 

[Elizaeth]

The senior Union Commander would have been Sedgewick, not a great tactician, but a decent leader of men. He would assume immediate command until the President appointed someone else or confirmed him in command. Grant would still be busy in Mississippi, and besides he was at the time junior to Rosecrans who still had a good reputation and had just successfully driven the Army of Tennessee back to Chattanooga. If anyone was brought from the west to take command it would most likely be hime with either Thomas or McClernand would most likely have been appointed to replace Rosecrans in that case. Another option is that Lincoln, who had already once authorized McClernand to act independently of his Department Commander, might have appointed McClernand to command of the Army of the Potomac. Depending on exactly which of the choices is followed it could have interesting butterflies. As far as Sherman is concerned at this point he had the support of his brother who was a US Senator and Gen. Grant, Halleck still thought of both Grant and Sherman as loose cannons and would have reminded Lincoln that Sherman had been relieved of command earlier in the war and placed in a mental institution for a short period (largely for making truthful statements to a superior officer in a disrespectful and condescending manner). Therefore the top candidates in order of seniority would be Rosecrans, Sedgewick, McClernand, Thomas, Hancock, and finally Sherman.