WI Mary Tudor was pregnant with Louis XII child in 1514?

After the death of Anne of Brittany, Louis then married Mary Tudor(1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful. Despite two previous marriages, the king had no living sons and sought to produce an heir; but Louis died on 1 January 1515, less than three months after he married Mary, reputedly worn out by his exertions in the bedchamber. Their union produced no children.
WI Mary was pregnant with Louis XII child when he died? How is the birth of a child to Mary and Louis affects England and France? If its a boy he would inherit both Crowns? Any thoughts?
 
If it's a girl, it's a moot issue, except possibly down the line, as the daughter (and her offspring) would have a claim to the English throne. If it's a boy, still the same issue, except he'd also be the King of France.

It would all depend how the reign of Henry VIII plays out. Does he still break with Rome? Are Mary and Elizabeth still born? Edward? If Mary gives birth to a son, will she remain in France and thus not marry the Duke of Norfolk? Henry's will dictated that after Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth, the children of his sister Mary were to succeed the throne, axing those of Margaret, as she had married the King of Scotland. If Mary has a child with the King of France, I doubt Henry VIII would let them have a place in his succession, too much trouble and possibility of dragging England into a union of the crowns.

I don't know what Mary would do in this situation. A woman in France could not become Queen in her own right, but the power of the mother was very respected. She might be Regent for her child if it's a boy, although given how young she is, perhaps François of Angoulême (OTL François Ier) would be regent for the young boy.
 
Probably a regency council. Whether the queen mother is on it and has any power depends on her husband will and her own character.
 
This is the great what if because it make no change at all to the English situation - Henry VIII continues to strive for an heir - i expect that Mary like her elder sister Margaret spends much of her time in the 1520's striving to maintain her authority as Queen Mother for the infant Louis XIII, her relationship with Francis was good as was her relationship with her step daughter. Her relationship with her brother like her sister Margaret would probably go up and go down depending on her behaviour - I suspect gossip would suggest the dowager was having a liason with Francis and Henry (ironically) strongly disapproved of both his sisters rather difficult romantic lives. After his divorce and conversion I suspect Mary like Margaret would have equally been very disapproving!
 

Vitruvius

Donor
If Louis XII has a male heir to inherit the French throne then its possible that the Duchy of Brittany will not be incorporated into France. Claude, his daughter by Anne, was made Duchess IOTL and it was only because she married the next King, Francis I, that Brittany stayed with France. So an independent Brittany could be in play perhaps under a branch of the Valois or under another house (Claude was at one point engaged to Charles V).
 
If Louis XII has a male heir to inherit the French throne then its possible that the Duchy of Brittany will not be incorporated into France. Claude, his daughter by Anne, was made Duchess IOTL and it was only because she married the next King, Francis I, that Brittany stayed with France. So an independent Brittany could be in play perhaps under a branch of the Valois or under another house (Claude was at one point engaged to Charles V).

If its a boy and Henry VIII and Edward VI die as per OTL... then Mary's offspring who would be about 38 years old by then he could use force to promote his claim to the English Crown... This could lead to a major clash between England France and Scotland... England would have proclaimed Mary as Queen while France would enter the game with Mary's son (lets call him Louis XIII) Scotland has a weaker claim with Mary Stuart and propably would be the "Kingmaker"... I wonder... is a marriage between Louis XIII and Mary Tudor plausible and an alliance against Scotland? Or Scotland lures France to their side first and forms an alliance against England?
 
I think Scotland lureing France to their side first and forms an alliance against England is more likely. No love is lost between France a England.
 
Louis XIII and Mary I had roughly the same age... so a marriage between them is plausible in this TL... Henry VIII had declared her a bastard so it would be no use for him... but for Louis XIII it would strengthen his claim over England...
 
The French recognised Mary I's legitimacy in otl and it was only at her death that Henri II decided to proclaim his daugther in law despite the fact that Mary Stuart had been at his court and betrothed to his son throughout Mary I's pro spanish reign. In this alternate universe you have A direct line of succession in place at Edward VI's death and one that he would have been as uncomfortable with as he was in OTL - Mary (catholic and legally illegitimate), Elizabeth (protestant but illegitimate), Mary Stuart (Catholic), Lady Margaret Countess of Lennox (nominally Catholic but uniquely the mother of a son with again questionable legitimacy), Louis XIII of France (Catholic) === and any other children of Mary Tudor (assuming she remarried)
One issue is what becomes of Mary Stuart in this timeline - because she well might not exist - James V married Madeleine of France (who in our timeline will be simply the daughter of the Duchess of Brittany and Countess of Anjouleme) on her death he married Marie of Guise. Assuming that follows and Mary is born - then its still likely that Henry VIII will attempt to grab her for Edward and just as likely that his great niece will be spirited off to France - where its highly likely that Henry's other nephew will betrothe her to his son.
So in 1558 Protestant Elizabeth will succeed Mary I - as in otl the French will formally proclaim the Queen of Scots and Dauphine of France as Queen of England as well, Spain despite the relgious concerns will support Elizabeth to avoid the French gaining the upperhand - in those circumstances the pressure on Elizabeth to make an urgent political marriage is going to be even more intense - there are no alternative English born Protestant heirs. You also are if Mary and her french husband have any children likely to see a much stronger rebellion in Scotland who are going to look to the future and see a long line of Valois Catholic French Kings bleeding Scotland dry....with a pro-guise Queen Consort in France and no pragmatic de Medici Queen Mother - you are also likely to see an even more bitter French religious war.
 
I love inexplicable necros...
Oh dear. Necromancy on this site is discouraged, often strongly.

Some people get away with it if they have something valuable to say, but 'bump, bump' isn't it.

If you want to continue the conversation started in a dead thread, the desirable way to go on this board is to start a new one, link to the old one, and say

"I was reading old threads and ran across the following ...linky... It posits that the Hittites were ..." whatever.
 
Considering Louis XII died barely three months after his second marriage, it means Mary won't have been pregnant for long. Were people able to detect a pregnancy before the third month* in those times? Just a question, because if Mary Tudor's pregnancy remained undetected, events could take a rather funny turn...

Anyway, with Mary Tudor being pregnant, then her child's gender won't be known until she gives birth to it. This is important because the French will have to wait for her to give birth to know their next King: thus, the moment Louis XII dies, France is under Regency. Mary Tudor, as dowager queen, can claim Regency: France allows Queen Mothers to take regency for their children (it was done several times OTL). However, given the situation, Francis of Angoulême (OTL François Ier), as Premier Prince du Sang** and heir to Louis XII by default, will likely play an important part in the Regency. I can see Mary Tudor and Francis being declared co-regents eventually.

After that regency, all will depend on the gender of Mary Tudor's child. If it's a boy, he will be the next King of France. The regency will remain in place until the boy turns 13 (or 14, I'm no longer sure) by which point he will be declared able to rule alone. This will probably leave Mary Tudor forced to remain in France unless Henry VIII insists otherwise: however, I doubt he would ask her to go home considering his nephew is King of France. Regarding OTL Francis I, he won't disappear from History: via his marriage to Claude of France (he was already married to her before Louis XII died I believe), he is Duke of Britanny jure uxoris. Plus, he holds a number of counties that make him one of the strongest nobles in France: his only rival would be the Duke of Bourbon I believe. Britanny won't be in Personnal Union with France in this scenario, but it will be seen as part of the French Kingdom: I can even see possible marriage with the French Royal family to ensure it remains this way.

If Mary Tudor were to give birth to a girl, then the French succession would remain unchange compared to OTL: Francis I would still become King. The question of Britanny wouldn't show up because of Claude of France being Francis' queen. To sum up: same situation, even if delayed by a pregnancy. What changes is Mary Tudor's fate: will she leave the French court? She was the favorite sister of Henry VIII but her daughter will be considered part of the French royal family. Henry VIII could let her remain in France, thinking she and her daughter could play some important role.

Regarding the question of the English succession, it's a rather tricky one. The child is not ill-place considering he comes right after the children of Henry VIII and Margaret Stuart, but he is also not so well placed considering those two bloodlines. Plus, being French, the English won't want him as King/Queen: the French didn't want an English King and that cause a Hundread Years' War. Who says the English want a rematch in the reverse way?

*If you're wondering why I mentionned the third month of pregnancy, it's because the mother's belly starts to grow & reveal the fact a woman is pregnant.

**First Prince of Blood
 
Considering Louis XII died barely three months after his second marriage, it means Mary won't have been pregnant for long. Were people able to detect a pregnancy before the third month* in those times? Just a question, because if Mary Tudor's pregnancy remained undetected, events could take a rather funny turn...

Well, the fact that she would have missed her "monthly bleedings" would surely be considered as a sign of pregnancy...
 
Oh dear. Necromancy on this site is discouraged, often strongly.

Some people get away with it if they have something valuable to say, but 'bump, bump' isn't it.

If you want to continue the conversation started in a dead thread, the desirable way to go on this board is to start a new one, link to the old one, and say

"I was reading old threads and ran across the following ...linky... It posits that the Hittites were ..." whatever.

I meant, I love to see inexplicable necromancy, even if I disagree with it on principle. I didn't articulate that opinion however, so that was more than a little foolish on my part!
 
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