How about Dad sends him with the ambassadors while Mom's busy elsewhere? And she doesn't find out in time. But everyone else thinks it's a good idea because they don't want a "mama's boy" for a king.
WI | Mary Tudor marries Sigismund II, King of Poland
- Thread starter Tempered Zen
- Start date
I'd say Sigismund III's second name would be Henry rather than Augustus (Zygmunt III Henryk). Sigismund Augustus get his second name because he was born on 1 August and his mother wanted him to be powerful monarch, thus reference to ancient Roman title). One part of problem is solved-Sigismund simply fell in love and wants to marry Mary Tudor, ignoring question of political gains or loses, but why would Henry VIII allow this marriage?
Could the marriage have occurred in the brief period of time before Henry's dissolving of his marriage with Catherine of Aragon and his marriage to Anne Boleyn? Perhaps as an over-the-top attempt to get at Catherine for her continued defiance.
Kaze
Banned
The problem is when is Mary getting Married to Sigismund II? If it is when she was a teenager, then you might have children. If it is when she married Philip II, it was far too late to have children. One of Henry's problems is that he changed alliances every once and a while - most of the alliances were anti-French, but let us not go there. As part of his changing alliances - Mary was made fiancee towards the respective power, but as soon as the alliance soured or Henry had to front up troops, money, or let her actually marry said fiancee - Henry rejected the alliance and engaged her to someone else. He kept doing it until it was far too late to be worthy of being child-bearing.
-------
Second problem - What if Mary is Sterile? It has been suggested that her sister Elizabeth was sterile - that is why she never married or had children (conspiracy theories aside). So there might be a case both were sterile or had problems having children - much like their father.
-------
Second problem - What if Mary is Sterile? It has been suggested that her sister Elizabeth was sterile - that is why she never married or had children (conspiracy theories aside). So there might be a case both were sterile or had problems having children - much like their father.
I'd say 1547 is too late for them to wed. Siggy II needs to wed before 1543 (so he can fall in love with his wife and ignore Barbara when she comes along).
Late 1536 or early 1537 (before Edward, after Anne) would be a good time. Janie can perfect her wife-saint persona by hosting the wedding and seeing her step-daughter off before she dies after childbirth. Even if Mary weds in 1538 (after Jane's death, but because Jane wanted it), she's still in her early twenties. Two or three children wouldn't be too unbelievable; those Castille-Aragon girls were all fertile, it would be genetically possible for Mary to have children. I doubt she was sterile, just stressed.
Late 1536 or early 1537 (before Edward, after Anne) would be a good time. Janie can perfect her wife-saint persona by hosting the wedding and seeing her step-daughter off before she dies after childbirth. Even if Mary weds in 1538 (after Jane's death, but because Jane wanted it), she's still in her early twenties. Two or three children wouldn't be too unbelievable; those Castille-Aragon girls were all fertile, it would be genetically possible for Mary to have children. I doubt she was sterile, just stressed.
If it's a matter of Jane surviving, and especially if it's a matter of her having more children, then it seems more likely to me that (unless it's a matter of pride in marrying a King or heir to the throne) Mary could end up with Philip, Duke of Palatinate-Neuburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip,_Duke_of_Palatinate-Neuburg), both of whom seemed to have genuine affection for each other. And then maybe, especially if Henry doesn't want a visual reminder of Anne Boleyn around, Eizabeth could be the one married off to Sigismund.
I could be wrong. I often am.
I could be wrong. I often am.
Hard nut to crack-either is too early for Sigismund or too late for Mary. There is theory, quite likely, that Sigismund Augustus and Barbara were caught 'in flagranti' by Barbara's brother and cousin, and that this event hastened Sigismund's decision of marriage (Radziwiłłs demanded it to avoid shame for their family). Now imagine Siggie and Mary caught in bed by Henry VIII, abstracting from implausibility of such situation, result would be quite different...
Henry might just have a stroke then and there or say that it's not surprising that the mother lied about being a virgin when she married Henry that the daughter is any different.
Hènry rejected the suit when he realized Philipp was just using him to get back at Karl V, perhaps even try and get elected as emperor after Karl V IIRC
Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of Henry VIII was so innocent that when her father had someone use vulgar/risque terms to her, she didn't know what the person was talking about. And she was as Roman Catholic as her mother. If you want one of his H8's daughter's to be a slut, the sneaky and never-give-a-straight answer Elizabeth is your huckleberry.
Jane doesn't have to survive, just be the peacemaker and make the marriage happen. If Mary weds in the summer of 1537, Mary is 21, Sigismund II is 17 (or within spitting distance of 17) and there's every possibility they'll have children. (Maybe not a lot if Siggy has a low sperm count.)
A solution would be to have Jane live a bit longer, maybe a year and Mary is sent to Poland.
I think three living children would be possible for Mary.
I think three living children would be possible for Mary.
If Jane is pregnant, she's getting anything she wants. That's why I suggested the summer of 1537. Jane died in childbirth. Are we butterflying E6 or just having him born on time and Jane dies in the second pregnancy?
Would Sigismund I want such a match at that time though? The furthest west I remember him negotiating was an anti-Hapsburg alliance with France in 1524, but that rell through after Pavia. Besides which, I could be wrong, but I think Henry VIII was persona non grata among the Catholic monarchs of Europe at the time.
How about this for a reason: Mary is known to be RC, the pope supports the marriage (to get England back into the fold - remember, she's the front runner for the throne until October 1537), Elizabeth is waaaaay too young), and there is every possibility the HRE will back Mary's claim over anything but a legitimate son. And so will a lot of the English (and Welsh).
What about this:
-Anna of Bohemia and Hungary dies giving birth to her first child (that child is Elizabeth of Austria, Siggy's OTL first wife, who also dies).
-Ferdinand Habsburg needs new wife with claims to Bohemian and Hungarian thrones, so he marries Anna's cousin, Hedwig of Poland, daughter of Sigismund I.
-So there is already Polish-Austrian match, another one is not only unnecessary-hypothetical daughters of Hedwig and Ferdinand would be Sigismund Augustus' nieces, (and would be too young). Uncle-niece marriages were still uncommon back then, and Jagiellons never married such close relatives.
-Mary Tudor is relative of Habsburgs, could Emperor Charles V suggest her, when Habsburg girls are not available? Only alternatives are Christina and Dorothea of Denmark-perhaps Sigismund doesn't want to complicate relations with Denmark with marriage of his son with daughter of deposed Danish King) and Maria of Viseu.
-For Jane or whoever is beloved wife of H8 and mum of his son(s) marriage of Mary Tudor in some 'far, far away' country means, that her future offspring would have little chance to ever claim the throne.
-Anna of Bohemia and Hungary dies giving birth to her first child (that child is Elizabeth of Austria, Siggy's OTL first wife, who also dies).
-Ferdinand Habsburg needs new wife with claims to Bohemian and Hungarian thrones, so he marries Anna's cousin, Hedwig of Poland, daughter of Sigismund I.
-So there is already Polish-Austrian match, another one is not only unnecessary-hypothetical daughters of Hedwig and Ferdinand would be Sigismund Augustus' nieces, (and would be too young). Uncle-niece marriages were still uncommon back then, and Jagiellons never married such close relatives.
-Mary Tudor is relative of Habsburgs, could Emperor Charles V suggest her, when Habsburg girls are not available? Only alternatives are Christina and Dorothea of Denmark-perhaps Sigismund doesn't want to complicate relations with Denmark with marriage of his son with daughter of deposed Danish King) and Maria of Viseu.
-For Jane or whoever is beloved wife of H8 and mum of his son(s) marriage of Mary Tudor in some 'far, far away' country means, that her future offspring would have little chance to ever claim the throne.
If they had mle issue, that might make succession disputes fun down the line....
I believe if Jane gets Mary wed to Siggy 2, she'll have an idea about who Anne Boleyn's bastard daughter's husband should be. It won't be an Englishman (Henry's too touchy and it's just asking for trouble), but it won't be an heir presumptive to anything (Jane didn't like Anne). Maybe to the Italian states with la Liz?
If Jane survives Edward's birth by a couple of years (either she's slow to conceive again); she's going to ensure Elizabeth cannot inherit the throne (the wife of the illegitimate son of the Pope as Queen? Heresy!) It's not personal, it's political. (The illegitimate son of the Pope thing was just a WI, not a suggestion. If Mary has more than one son (let's be greedy, say she has three), England might oppose the union of Poland and England under a Polish King, but an England ruled by the grandson of Henry VIII and Katherine of Aragon (raised under a religiously flexible father) might be possible for son two or three.
If Jane survives Edward's birth by a couple of years (either she's slow to conceive again); she's going to ensure Elizabeth cannot inherit the throne (the wife of the illegitimate son of the Pope as Queen? Heresy!) It's not personal, it's political. (The illegitimate son of the Pope thing was just a WI, not a suggestion. If Mary has more than one son (let's be greedy, say she has three), England might oppose the union of Poland and England under a Polish King, but an England ruled by the grandson of Henry VIII and Katherine of Aragon (raised under a religiously flexible father) might be possible for son two or three.
I think innocent Mary would not be perfect perfect spouse for lustful Sigismund, in this regard she would resemble Sigismund's first wife Elizabeth of Austria, who was raised on conservative Habsburg court (and that marriage was not happy one). Their religious views (devout Catholic vs man tolerant towards Protestants, who IOTL argued with Pope's nuncio, that Papal dispensation for his third marriage was invalid, because it is against God's laws to marry sister-in-law) also didn't match. Seems that only thing, that could keep such marriage functioning would be kids.