WI: Mary Tudor (Henry VIII's daughter) had fled the country in 1535?

I've got a question: Would it be possible for Mary to marry Francis: Dauphin of France and Duke of Brittany? He's Catholic but French, so...
 
Didn't Catherine de Medici marry Prince Henry, his other brother? Why would Mary make a difference to that marriage?

If Francis marries Mary of England, Catherine de Medici would not be the Queen of France and would be more unimportant than in OTL, especially if Mary bears a son.
 
Here is a list of possible candidates for Mary to marry. Please say which one you feel would work the best.

1- Infante Philip of Spain (future Phillip II of Spain)

2- Infante Louis: Duke of Beja

3- Francis III: Dauphin of France and Duke of Brittany

4- Reginald Pole (currently part of the church)

5- Emmanuel Philibert: Heir to Savoy

6- James V of Scotland

7- Sigismund: Heir to Poland

8- Albert Frederick: Future Duke of Prussia

9- Any others you can think of.
 
All the advice given to Mary at this period from the Imperial Ambassador and her own domestic supporters was 1) To submit to her father in terms of the supremacy and 2) to not leave the country.
To flee would have placed her at the head of any future foreign invasion and most recognised that whilst there was considerable domestic sympathy and support it would be significantly erroded if she was seen as the puppet of a foreign power.

Actually that is very much wrong. That advise only came AFTER Anne Boleyn's execution, once it became obvious that the King had no intention of restoring Mary to her previous position. Before that Mary and Catherine's supporters seriously entertained the idea of getting them out of the country.

And I think your vastly underestimating the real situation in England at this point. The King's popularity was at its lowest point, while Catherine and Mary were regarded by many as living saints. Mary fleeing would create a difficult situation for all, as she is the rightful heiress of England in the eyes of the Catholic world. And I'm sure she would make some kind of proclamation saying that she is forever loyal to her father but fears for her life because of Anne Boleyn. It would gain her more sympathy in England while further degrading her father's popularity and reputation abroad.

Mary would be the obvious choice to act as a figurehead for any invasion yes, but there's also a big chance that dissatisfied nobles will reach out and offer to rise if an invasion was to occur. Considering the King's unpopularity and favoritism of Boleyn's family and new men, I think the more established nobles will take advantage to regain lost power and side with Mary.

agreed, Mary leaving was the last resort only to be undertaken if her life was in danger, as often people believed it was from Anne, but yes, the English were not ready or willing to support a foreign invasion no matter who was its titular head

whatever interesting PODs that Mary leaving England sets off, a Spanish conquest of England in the name of the Catholic Church isn't one of them

I would be interested to see if her leaving would lead to changes with Henry FitzRoy

Again your wrong. The fact that many nobles reached out to the Emperor during 1534-36 offering to rise in favor of the Princess if Charles invades shows the real situation behind the scenes. Mary would be a convenient figurehead not only for a potential invasion but also for dissatisfied nobles who are angry at the King and his advisers.

And with Mary in Brussels and the Pope saying she's the rightful Queen, I feel that the Emperor would be paraded into action.

Wasn't he part of the church at this point?

OK couple of things. One, you might want to create a separate thread for the actual TL, it makes it easier to read. Second, the Empress Isabella never left Spain, as she was Regent for her husband there during his frequent absences. Mary of Austria, Queen Dowager of Hungary was the Governor of the Netherlands at this point. Third, Henry VIII isn't that likely to actually put Catherine on trial, much less execute her. It doesn't matter what his ego was, this would make England a pariah state and Henry (or his advisers) would know this. It would permanently end any chance of an alliance with the Emperor.

As to marriages, the best choice at this point would be King James V of Scotland, Mary's first cousin. The chance to be jure uxoris King of England might be enough to have James drift from an alliance with France to one with the Emperor. Other options would be Henri de France, Duc d'Orleans (unlikely but possible), Louis, Duke of Beja, and maybe John of Denmark (son of deposed King Christian of Denmark and the late Isabella of Austria) if you want to have him survive.

As to Reginald Pole, yes and no. He as a Cardinal but never took holy orders, so he would be a (very) unlikely option. I doubt Pole was ever seriously considered as a bridegroom for the Princess.
 
OK couple of things. One, you might want to create a separate thread for the actual TL, it makes it easier to read. Second, the Empress Isabella never left Spain, as she was Regent for her husband there during his frequent absences. Mary of Austria, Queen Dowager of Hungary was the Governor of the Netherlands at this point. Third, Henry VIII isn't that likely to actually put Catherine on trial, much less execute her. It doesn't matter what his ego was, this would make England a pariah state and Henry (or his advisers) would know this. It would permanently end any chance of an alliance with the Emperor.

As to marriages, the best choice at this point would be King James V of Scotland, Mary's first cousin. The chance to be jure uxoris King of England might be enough to have James drift from an alliance with France to one with the Emperor. Other options would be Henri de France, Duc d'Orleans (unlikely but possible), Louis, Duke of Beja, and maybe John of Denmark (son of deposed King Christian of Denmark and the late Isabella of Austria) if you want to have him survive.

As to Reginald Pole, yes and no. He as a Cardinal but never took holy orders, so he would be a (very) unlikely option. I doubt Pole was ever seriously considered as a bridegroom for the Princess.

1 and 2) Thank you. I was just sort of guessing that Isabella would be in Brussels (wasn't thinking). That will change when I post it again on a new thread. :)

3) I respectfully disagree. I think that, if Henry was put in such a position as in this timeline and he thought that Catherine was a beacon of rebellion, he might go this far. I might make it take longer for Catherine to be beheaded, but I still think that Henry might see it as the only way too save himself. He was fond of fixing problems that way. Also, at this point the emperor has kidnapped his daughter and being incredibly open about it. Henry VIII now will not see any reason to keep a relationship with the Emperor, at least at this point. Just my idea.

4) I was thinking of James, but also kinda want to have her marry Francis: Dauphin of France and Duke of Brittany. Make her Queen of France and put her in a really good position to invade England at some point. What do you think?

5) I agree, Reginald Pole is very unlikely.
 
1 and 2) Thank you. I was just sort of guessing that Isabella would be in Brussels (wasn't thinking). That will change when I post it again on a new thread. :)

3) I respectfully disagree. I think that, if Henry was put in such a position as in this timeline and he thought that Catherine was a beacon of rebellion, he might go this far. I might make it take longer for Catherine to be beheaded, but I still think that Henry might see it as the only way too save himself. He was fond of fixing problems that way. Also, at this point the emperor has kidnapped his daughter and being incredibly open about it. Henry VIII now will not see any reason to keep a relationship with the Emperor, at least at this point. Just my idea.

4) I was thinking of James, but also kinda want to have her marry Francis: Dauphin of France and Duke of Brittany. Make her Queen of France and put her in a really good position to invade England at some point. What do you think?

5) I agree, Reginald Pole is very unlikely.

I'm still unsure about Catherine's fate but I'll let that go for now.

As to Francois, I doubt it very seriously. For one I can't see the Emperor supporting such a match. It would potentially strengthen his chief rival, so not a good thing there. And Mary was very pro-Habsburg her hole life and the fact that Francois I supported Henry's divorce and remarriage so I can't see her wanting to marry into a family that she would no doubt hold responsible for her mother's death. James V would be the best bet, as it would create base from which to invade England.
 
A betrothal to the Prince of Asturias would ward off other potential suitors, keep her in Spanish control and give Charles V free reign to press her claims whenever, while at the same time allowing time for events to develop (ie, Henry VIII to father a son) and Philip to eventually marry elsewhere if events diminished Mary's market value.
 
Does anyone have any interesting butterflies? I've got things planned but I want to see what everyone else thinks is logical. Here are some of my ideas:

1) Anne Boleyn will have another child, and it will be female.

2) Mary Tudor will become a Queen, but I am not sure of what country. Which one do you see as the best option?

3) Infante Philip will not marry anyone who he married OTL. Who is the best choice then? I am currently thinking Jean of Navarre or Margaret of France, though I'm open to other options.

4) Henry VIII will be married to at least 1 or 2 more women. Who, I don't know? Any ideas?

5) Any other ideas?
 
Does anyone have any interesting butterflies? I've got things planned but I want to see what everyone else thinks is logical. Here are some of my ideas:

1) Anne Boleyn will have another child, and it will be female.

2) Mary Tudor will become a Queen, but I am not sure of what country. Which one do you see as the best option?

3) Infante Philip will not marry anyone who he married OTL. Who is the best choice then? I am currently thinking Jean of Navarre or Margaret of France, though I'm open to other options.

4) Henry VIII will be married to at least 1 or 2 more women. Who, I don't know? Any ideas?

5) Any other ideas?

Jeanne of Navarre although it would mean that his bride will be gasp! protestant.
 
Would it be possible for Spain, France and Scotland to come together in an alliance against England? My current plan is to have them all come together in abut 1537/1538 and then have it devolve into infighting. Would that work, or would it be impossible. Remember, Henry will have beheaded Catherine of Aragon, and will be on wife number 3 by that point (and it will not be Jane Seymour, so who do you think it could be?) and will also have been denounced by the Pope entirely as an unfit heretic ruler. So, would it work?
 
Just caught up this discussion thread and wanted to offer my on 2 coppers.

It might be possible that France might join with Spain against England, but I think they would most likely stay out of it or offer only lip service. The rivalry between France and Spain I think is too strong, and they might not like Spain getting extra influence across the Channel.
 
Just caught up this discussion thread and wanted to offer my on 2 coppers.

It might be possible that France might join with Spain against England, but I think they would most likely stay out of it or offer only lip service. The rivalry between France and Spain I think is too strong, and they might not like Spain getting extra influence across the Channel.

Well, my idea is that France gets roped in through marriage treaties. I want to marry Francis: Dauphin of France to Mary Tudor, while also marrying Margaret of France to Phillip of Spain and Charles de Valois to the Maria of Austria. It wont be the biggest help, but it will give support.
 
Well, my idea is that France gets roped in through marriage treaties. I want to marry Francis: Dauphin of France to Mary Tudor, while also marrying Margaret of France to Phillip of Spain and Charles de Valois to the Maria of Austria. It wont be the biggest help, but it will give support.


Gotcha. Well that can add to things, but I will wonder how well such an alliance will work out in the long term, and if Mary might have an ax to grind against Spain for how her cousin treats her.

Also might we see a quicker end of the Spanish Habsburg? Such messy things cousin after cousin marrying into the same families. Makes the Family tree so thin at the top. ;)
 
Gotcha. Well that can add to things, but I will wonder how well such an alliance will work out in the long term, and if Mary might have an ax to grind against Spain for how her cousin treats her.

Also might we see a quicker end of the Spanish Habsburg? Such messy things cousin after cousin marrying into the same families. Makes the Family tree so thin at the top. ;)

Well, by marrying a few Valois into the family, it will definitely fill out the family tree. That might buy a few extra generations; maybe.
 
Well, by marrying a few Valois into the family, it will definitely fill out the family tree. That might buy a few extra generations; maybe.

That is if those children live. If those lines die out then it does not do Spain any good.

Might be worse if something like that happened to Austrian branches as well.

I will wonder how Mary's children will turn out in this timeline.
 
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