WI Mary of Burgundy was born a boy instead?

If Burgundians adopt Lutheranism when (and if) Reformation breaks out Pope would have a severe headache by having a Lutheran state above his own borders... Maybe Popes try and incite a Crusade against Burgundy in such a case...

Burgundy is no closer to the Papal States than north Germany, and surely no more threatening than the other Protestant states, surely? I think by the 1500s the Crusade was essentially outdated as a Papal tool anyway. A couple of Popes tried it, and the Battle of Lepanto was a good victory for Christendom v Islam, but by this point Kings weren't really interested in committing troops to a Crusade. I'm not sure the Pope would try it for the reason of expected failure of raising a decent army.
 
Well, that IS thebutterfly# effect, tghat in a sufficientyl chaotci system (such as the entriety of history) any small chaneges will lead to great outcomes. Remember fo example that Luther at first didnt argue against teh Catholic chruch, butagainst one special bishop, who might not even have come to prominence ITTL!
That some form of religious moveent would come is I think a given. But it needs not be a schism, and even if - even small details changed in that process willc ause themselves so much change...

Well, I think the sale of indulgences will still happen, (the Popes will need money at some point) which will still get Luther steamed no matter who does it. As another commenter has pointed out, Luther was angry with the corrupt way the Catholic church had behaved, and I don't think that will change in this TL.

Thats... thats not really how things worked in Germany. Or Europe in general. You didnt just occupy states and statelets for the most part, you at least needed a casus belli and legal claim to the land. If Burgundy expands further into the HRE, it will look like the HRE, with many fragmented exclaves etc., instead of a coherant expansion by conquest as you seem to envision it.

What I'm envisioning is more the Burgundians getting involved in Rhineland politics, marrying into the royal families of the various states, forming alliances, playing them off against each other, inheriting (or contesting the succession of) various thrones, etc, throughout the late 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. I imagine by the end of that time they could have most of the Rhineland in their orbit (and would, of course, rule lands in other regions of the HRE as well).

Techncially true, but so is the Yorkshire dialect for example. I think you meant German.

Again you mean German commoners. Anyways, this is the 15th century. Over teh coruse of th enext centuries IOTL quite manycourts all over Europe had adopted French as language, and the Habsburg court was Italian speaking for a while. It doesnt really mean anything, not yet. The French conquests became francified due to absolutism (and part of that was that there was only one state language, even though even in France only a plurality spoke it), and due to France being inc ontrol of teh territories when nationalism arose - not due to court language. Its a different situation in Burgundy, which worked similar to the other German powers, as an amalgamtion of its single territories, with (at east in teh 15th and early 16th century still) all their old rights.

I think their is a difference-the Hapsburgs, for example, certainly weren't Italian-if I understand you correctly, they just adopted it out of fashion for a while. The Burgundians, on the other hand, are actually French-the language will have quite a bit more staying power with them. The territories they acquire might keep their local rights, but any administrators sent from the capital will most likely be French, and conversely anyone from the Rhineland who wants a career in the Burgundian capital will have to speak French. It would be the common language of the territories under Burgundian rule, and learning it will be required for social advancement (much like German in the Hapsburg Empire, or Spanish in Iberia)
 

Susano

Banned
Well, I think the sale of indulgences will still happen, (the Popes will need money at some point) which will still get Luther steamed no matter who does it. As another commenter has pointed out, Luther was angry with the corrupt way the Catholic church had behaved, and I don't think that will change in this TL.
If Luther is even born. And has that life experience going into a monastery. And has the same crisises of belief there. And hence goes to study theology etc etc etc...

What I'm envisioning is more the Burgundians getting involved in Rhineland politics, marrying into the royal families of the various states, forming alliances, playing them off against each other, inheriting (or contesting the succession of) various thrones, etc, throughout the late 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. I imagine by the end of that time they could have most of the Rhineland in their orbit (and would, of course, rule lands in other regions of the HRE as well).
Well, yes, thats what I meant. That would be standard dynastic politics of the time. But the end result of that simply is a state which is territory not very cohesive most of the time.

I think their is a difference-the Hapsburgs, for example, certainly weren't Italian-if I understand you correctly, they just adopted it out of fashion for a while. The Burgundians, on the other hand, are actually French-the language will have quite a bit more staying power with them. The territories they acquire might keep their local rights, but any administrators sent from the capital will most likely be French, and conversely anyone from the Rhineland who wants a career in the Burgundian capital will have to speak French. It would be the common language of the territories under Burgundian rule, and learning it will be required for social advancement (much like German in the Hapsburg Empire, or Spanish in Iberia)
Well, yes, thats what I meant, court language fashions. Its true, the Habsburg administration and officers were mostly German speaking - though before the Josephian reforms, that was really only the higher administration. Local administration spoke the local language, and the officially official ;) language in many places was still Latin. Certainly, Habsburg administration did not Germanify any area - all German enclaves in Habsburg territories were already (pre-Habsburg) settler enclaves, not Germanified areas. So I assume something similar would happen here. Also, no matter where the political centre is (was the Burgundian court at Dijon?), the economical centre will be the Netherlands. Dutch/Lower German (same thing at that time, really) might hence have a larger pull. See how Catalan fared in Spain - Catalonia never was the political centre, but because it was always the richest province, Catalan was never assimilated into Spanish, like Occitan was into French, or Lower German into (Upper German-derived) Standard German. And the Netherlands have a very good chance to become the political centre, too, anyways.
 
Just a question: if Mary is born as a boy, who could be ITTL the wife of Maximilian?

How about one of the daughters of Edward IV of England? If its Elizabeth Maximilian could eliminate Henry of Richmont as contender of the throne since Henry's claim alone was very vague (he had to strengthen it by marrying Elizabeth) and thus claim the throne of England on behalf of his wife (becoming jure uxoris King of England) and adding the island to HRE...
 
Well, yes, thats what I meant, court language fashions. Its true, the Habsburg administration and officers were mostly German speaking - though before the Josephian reforms, that was really only the higher administration. Local administration spoke the local language, and the officially official ;) language in many places was still Latin. Certainly, Habsburg administration did not Germanify any area - all German enclaves in Habsburg territories were already (pre-Habsburg) settler enclaves, not Germanified areas. So I assume something similar would happen here. Also, no matter where the political centre is (was the Burgundian court at Dijon?), the economical centre will be the Netherlands. Dutch/Lower German (same thing at that time, really) might hence have a larger pull. See how Catalan fared in Spain - Catalonia never was the political centre, but because it was always the richest province, Catalan was never assimilated into Spanish, like Occitan was into French, or Lower German into (Upper German-derived) Standard German. And the Netherlands have a very good chance to become the political centre, too, anyways.

So, would the most likely outcome be a larger version of Belgium? That is, a state traditionally dominated by a French-speaking minority which has increasing tensions with its Dutch/German speaking majority?

How do you guys think 16th century European politics would unfold with a surviving Burgundy, assuming the reformation still happens at the same time as OTL?
 
How about one of the daughters of Edward IV of England? If its Elizabeth Maximilian could eliminate Henry of Richmont as contender of the throne since Henry's claim alone was very vague (he had to strengthen it by marrying Elizabeth) and thus claim the throne of England on behalf of his wife (becoming jure uxoris King of England) and adding the island to HRE...

If Maximilian can get his hands to the English Crown through marriage to one of Edward's IV daughters this leads to an interesting twist... He could have a good claim to the throne of France too (since every English King inserted the title King of France to his own title since Edward III...) and thus lead to a state roughly similar to the old Western Roman Empire...
 
How about one of the daughters of Edward IV of England? If its Elizabeth Maximilian could eliminate Henry of Richmont as contender of the throne since Henry's claim alone was very vague (he had to strengthen it by marrying Elizabeth) and thus claim the throne of England on behalf of his wife (becoming jure uxoris King of England) and adding the island to HRE...

If Maximilian can get his hands to the English Crown through marriage to one of Edward's IV daughters this leads to an interesting twist... He could have a good claim to the throne of France too (since every English King inserted the title King of France to his own title since Edward III...) and thus lead to a state roughly similar to the old Western Roman Empire...

Hmmm one of the results of Maximilian marrying a daughter of Edward IV
might be a stronger regency under Richard (III). A lot would depend on who gets custody of Edward's 2 sons. If they still disappear then we have another battle scenario with Maximilian in Henry's place but this time France would be backing Richard against the HRE and we get an official War of the English Succession!
 
Hmm, I'm not sure about Maximilian marrying a daughter of the English king. One of the reasons why his father Frederick made everything possible to marry him to Mary was that she would ensure a rich territory that would finance his wars. Around that time the Emperor was fighting Mathias Corvinus of Hungary, who not much later even conquered Vienna and made it his capital. If there is no Mary then Frederick would look for an alliance with some state that could help him. How useful the distant England, a country broken by civil war, would be for him?
 
Hmm, I'm not sure about Maximilian marrying a daughter of the English king. One of the reasons why his father Frederick made everything possible to marry him to Mary was that she would ensure a rich territory that would finance his wars. Around that time the Emperor was fighting Mathias Corvinus of Hungary, who not much later even conquered Vienna and made it his capital. If there is no Mary then Frederick would look for an alliance with some state that could help him. How useful the distant England, a country broken by civil war, would be for him?

Well England could be broken from Wars of Roses but it could be proved an excellent base for him to harass French who would be surrounded by HRE forces from East and North... If this happens France would have to rely on Scotland solely or Castille/Aragon for help...
 

Susano

Banned
So, would the most likely outcome be a larger version of Belgium? That is, a state traditionally dominated by a French-speaking minority which has increasing tensions with its Dutch/German speaking majority?
Unless the court assimilates, yes. Which is a possibility, but not all tha likely, so I think youre making a correct comparision. Of course in Belgium, while Flanders now is teh richer half, that used to be Wallonia, so the French-speaking dominant minoirty had economics on its side. As said, here the richest part definitly will be the Dutch speaking ones...

How do you guys think 16th century European politics would unfold with a surviving Burgundy, assuming the reformation still happens at the same time as OTL?

Well, Habsburg/the Empire is screwed. Most likely due to butterflies thered also be no union with Spain, while the Frenc-Imperial Wars in Italy will probably still happen...
 
Well England could be broken from Wars of Roses but it could be proved an excellent base for him to harass French who would be surrounded by HRE forces from East and North... If this happens France would have to rely on Scotland solely or Castille/Aragon for help...

Sure, but if the Habsburgs don't own Burgundy then France isn't their greatest concern anymore, since they don't have many lands bordering the French. Burgundy that needs allies against France, not the Emperor.
 

Susano

Banned
Sure, but if the Habsburgs don't own Burgundy then France isn't their greatest concern anymore, since they don't have many lands bordering the French. Burgundy that needs allies against France, not the Emperor.

As said theres Milan. IIRC, that was connected with the Habsburgs position as HR Emperor more than anything else... and IOTL that was the focus on an entire series of wars...
 
As said theres Milan. IIRC, that was connected with the Habsburgs position as HR Emperor more than anything else... and IOTL that was the focus on an entire series of wars...

But even it would be a non issue by the time of the ITTL marriage of Maximilian. IOTL he married Mary of Burgundy in 1477. The Italian Wars only started in 1494, almost 20 years later. By the time of Maximilian's marriage, if Mary doesn't exist and so there's no possibility of the Habsburgs directly owning Burgundy then France wouldn't be seen as the most important threat to them. Mathias Corvinus is still the greatest enemy they had by then, and Frederick would probably marry his son with the daughter of some ally who could help him with this problem.
 
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