WI: Martin Luther was arrested and executed at the Diet of Worms?

So I was reading about Jan Hus recently and found out that even though he was promised safe-passage by Sigismund of Hungary, was arrested, tried and executed. So what if the same happened to John Luther at the Diet of Worms? What would the reaction be, both in Germany and throughout Europe? Would the Protestant movement be strangled in the cradle or would Luther become it's first Martyr? Would all of Europe remain Catholic or was the break inevitable?
 
Do the words "There will be blood" mean anything to you?

Martin Luther's writings and thoughts were well known by the time of the Diet of Worms. He was very and increasingly popular, and a Bull of Excommunication against him was being openly mocked in a majority of places where it was sent. If the Emperor had dared to arrest him or to allow the agents of the Pope to arrest him, there would have been widespread outcry and even violence. If the Emperor or the Pope had executed Luther, well...

Not good for peace in Europe, my friends. Look at what happened when they burned Jan Hus. The same sentiments which gave Hus his support were even more powerful in Luther's time.
 
Do the words "There will be blood" mean anything to you?

Martin Luther's writings and thoughts were well known by the time of the Diet of Worms. He was very and increasingly popular, and a Bull of Excommunication against him was being openly mocked in a majority of places where it was sent. If the Emperor had dared to arrest him or to allow the agents of the Pope to arrest him, there would have been widespread outcry and even violence. If the Emperor or the Pope had executed Luther, well...

Not good for peace in Europe, my friends. Look at what happened when they burned Jan Hus. The same sentiments which gave Hus his support were even more powerful in Luther's time.

I was guessing it would end up with a larger Hussite wars. However, the Catholics eventually won that war, so would a Lutheran War end in the same way without a figurehead at the helm of the movement?
 
Would the Protestant movement be strangled in the cradle or would Luther become it's first Martyr? Would all of Europe remain Catholic or was the break inevitable?

The Swiss Reformation, led by Zwingli, probably would have begun anyway - Zwingli was preaching Protestant-style ideas as early as 1518. Throw in the continued influence of Wycliff and Hus and I think the genie couldn't have been put back in the bottle.
 
I was guessing it would end up with a larger Hussite wars. However, the Catholics eventually won that war, so would a Lutheran War end in the same way without a figurehead at the helm of the movement?

That's just the thing. There would be a figurehead. If they did away with Luther, then somebody like Zwingli would have taken up the cause. Luther's blood would have fueled a blaze unlike anything Europe had seen in some hundreds of years. We're not talking simple regional violence here, but a struggle which would extend from Sweden in the north to Italy in the south, and from England all the way to Poland.
 
That's just the thing. There would be a figurehead. If they did away with Luther, then somebody like Zwingli would have taken up the cause. Luther's blood would have fueled a blaze unlike anything Europe had seen in some hundreds of years. We're not talking simple regional violence here, but a struggle which would extend from Sweden in the north to Italy in the south, and from England all the way to Poland.

So if anything this would cause a MUCH larger reaction by the Protestants than OTL and would no doubt start a war much earlier. Considering the fact that the Habsburgs were the main enemies of the Protestants, would we see France in a stronger position compared to OTL?
 
So if anything this would cause a MUCH larger reaction by the Protestants than OTL and would no doubt start a war much earlier. Considering the fact that the Habsburgs were the main enemies of the Protestants, would we see France in a stronger position compared to OTL?

France is going to have Protestant troubles of its own, just as OTL.
 
And how will the various Protestant denominations be distributed without Luther and after the brutal struggles that would follow his execution?

map14_11.jpg
 
Let's not forget the Peasants' Revolt, spurred by Luther's ideas but vehemently lambasted by Luther himself. Without Luther there to distinguish his ideas from theirs, mightn't noblemen be more reluctant to encourage Protestantism?
 
And how will the various Protestant denominations be distributed without Luther and after the brutal struggles that would follow his execution?

You would probably have more distinct catholic/protestant regions and less lands without clear majority. Probably N-E Germany going full Lutheran earlier, Switzerland and french protestants (by the way, the map is hilarously wrong for France, this is slightly better) going Zwinglist.

Nothing that the Counter Reform couldn't achieve, honestly, but it would be more quick, and maybe at the benefit of Protestant ITTL (More gains in Western and Southern Germany)

Interestingly you could have more protestant denominations with a shorter influence of Martin Luther, and have more "national" churches.
 
You would probably have more distinct catholic/protestant regions and less lands without clear majority. Probably N-E Germany going full Lutheran earlier, Switzerland and french protestants (by the way, the map is hilarously wrong for France, this is slightly better) going Zwinglist.

Nothing that the Counter Reform couldn't achieve, honestly, but it would be more quick, and maybe at the benefit of Protestant ITTL (More gains in Western and Southern Germany)

Interestingly you could have more protestant denominations with a shorter influence of Martin Luther, and have more "national" churches.

By National churches I assume you mean something similar to the Anglican Church, with the Sovereign of each Nation replacing the Pope. If so that type of Protestantism, if it gos beyond England, would be very appealing to Monarchs in contention with the Papacy. Personally I'm always surprised that no other Christian Nation, Catholic or Protestant, went that way.
 
By National churches I assume you mean something similar to the Anglican Church, with the Sovereign of each Nation replacing the Pope.[.QUOTE]
That but also more classical Protestantism, but with "national" variants. As said, Zwinglism in Switzerland, Calvinism in France, "Knoxism" (as different and more distinct from OTL) in Scotland, etc.

Personally I'm always surprised that no other Christian Nation, Catholic or Protestant, went that way.
Oh, they used it. But more as a threat than anything else : if it lasted in England, it was mainly because of Papacy and Spain intransigence.

By exemple, you had french Gallicanisme : "akin to a form of Anglicanism but is nuanced, however, in that it plays down the authority of the Pope in Church without denying that there are some authoritative elements to the office associated with being primus inter pares" that Louis XIV tried to instaure during his reign.
 
You are forgetting one key element in Gallicanism. As far as dogma is concerned, Gallicanism was 100% catholic and did not contest the religions authority of the roman Pope.

Gallicanism was only a matter of politics and of power relationship between the french king and the pope. It was not a matter of religion.
 
You are forgetting one key element in Gallicanism. As far as dogma is concerned, Gallicanism was 100% catholic and did not contest the religions authority of the roman Pope.
"akin to a form of Anglicanism but is nuanced, however, in that it plays down the authority of the Pope in Church without denying that there are some authoritative elements to the office associated with being primus inter pares"

To resume, while religious authority of the Pope it does do it with its institutional role.

Gallicanism was only a matter of politics and of power relationship between the french king and the pope. It was not a matter of religion.
Not only it was both, but I would want to know was Anglicanism at first if not "a matters of politics and of power relationship between Henri VIII and the pope".

Theological differences are really appearing quite later during Elizabeth I's reign.

As I said in the post just above, it was used OTL more as a threat. Not as a genuine objective.

In a TL where Luther is executed, and subsequent Wars of Religion are going to be really nasty, such national conception of churches can possibly appear more strongly.
 
I wonder if more nations might create their own version of France's Gallicanism in a world where Luther was executed? That way their not completely braking away from Rome but at the same time gaining large autonomy from the Church.
 

Hnau

Banned
There's a piece in Robert Cowley's What If? anthology that talks about this exact POD. In the author's opinion the Peasant's Revolt would have been even more widespread, because though Luther inspired the revolt he was hostile to it and tried to contain it after it began.
 
You would probably have more distinct catholic/protestant regions and less lands without clear majority. Probably N-E Germany going full Lutheran earlier, Switzerland and french protestants (by the way, the map is hilarously wrong for France, this is slightly better) going Zwinglist.

Nothing that the Counter Reform couldn't achieve, honestly, but it would be more quick, and maybe at the benefit of Protestant ITTL (More gains in Western and Southern Germany)

Interestingly you could have more protestant denominations with a shorter influence of Martin Luther, and have more "national" churches.

Yes, I was curious about the real nature of the Protestant churches. I mean, Germany and Scandinavia become Lutheran in OTL, but would there even be a Lutheranism in a world where Luther is killed early? And I don't mean that in the sense of his not being influential at that point but rather that without his later activities crystallizing his own particular theological and political views, he more easily becomes a kind of blank slate that all of the denominations can project their own peculiar opinions on to thus preventing a movement that stays closer to his ideas.


I'm not saying that this would happen. I don't have nearly enough knowledge about the Reformation or Protestantism in general. I'm just throwing that consideration out there to those who have more expertise in this area.
 

ingemann

Banned
I think with Luther dead we may see Protestantism stay more united, but also more pluralistic. We may see High Protestantism (Lutherans and Hussites) and Low Protestantism (Zwinglism/Calvinism) and the two coopearating much more. Of course Anabaptists will still be thrown under the wagon. So we may see a much more organised counter movement against Catholism. Of course with Luther dead and a martyr Protestantism may simply take the name Lutheranism.
 
Of course with Luther dead and a martyr Protestantism may simply take the name Lutheranism.
Yes, this is basically what I was thinking might happen as well. Either the movement as a whole becomes "Lutheranism" or else nothing called "Lutheranism" emerges from the Protestant mix.
 
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