WI: Marie Thérèse de France, Madame Royal, Has a Daughter?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by JonasResende, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. JonasResende Well-Known Member

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    The only surviving child of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette died with no surviving children. But what if she'd had a daughter of her own? Born relatively in the early 1800s (so as to make her too young to marry the duc de Berri and too old for the OTL comte de Chambord)?
     
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  2. JonasResende Well-Known Member

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    We all know what sort of education the comte de Chambord was given OTL, but correct me if I'm wrong - even in the 19th century - there was a difference between the education of royal sons and their sisters. Although, even amongst the royal daughters there was a difference.
    Louise d'Orléans (queen of the Belgians) was described as being rather lacking in intellectual accomplishments (although her sisters, sculptress Marie and schemer Clementine, were not in likewise short supply).
    A similar comparison could be drawn between Maria Luise of Austria (OTL Empress of the French) and her sister, Maria Leopoldina (Empress of Brasil), although I imagine that they both got an identical education?
    And compared to Princess Charlotte (who I imagine that Thérèse-Antoinette - "Titi" for short - would be near contemporary with), the education of an archduchess or French princesse du sang was vastly superior, AIUI. I've never been able to figure out exactly what Charlotte was taught - reading, writing and probably some music/dancing, but her aunts' schooling had been likewise spotty, since the Georgian view was that to educate a woman "was to put an axe in the hands of a madman" apparently.

    So, what education would Titi be given? Typical convent education like Louis XV's daughters? Or a more rigourous curriculum like Maria Theresia's daughters had? (Note, I'm not saying she's gonna necessarily be a bright bulb, I'm just asking what would be the most likely). And do you guys think it'll be more along the conservative spectrum - as Chambord had - or, since it's likely she'll be educated in England (albeit by French tutors) it will be a slightly more balanced education?
     
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  3. JonasResende Well-Known Member

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  4. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Pretty difficult as the age range in which the girl will be too young for Berry but too old for his son (who OTL was born quite late) is really limited. I guess the girl can be married either to the future Ferdinand II of Two Sicilies or to the eldest son of the Duke of Orléans (as symbol of reconciliation and because the Orléans where really rich)... Both men are born in 1810 and our Mademoiselle of Angoulême must be born between 1806 and 1812 at the latest (in OTL Berry married in 1816 to a woman born in 1798, if his niece is already more than 10 years old is possible he would wait for her, and as he married in 1816 if she is born after 1812 would be taken in consideration for a possible son. True Chambord is born only in 1820 but Caroline had four pregnancies and the second one was a boy born premature who would be likely born at the end of 1818 at full term).
    For being safer is better restricting the birth age of Marie Antoniette Thérèse of Artois between 1807 and 1811 and that put her exactly in the right age range for either the Duke of Calabria or the Duke of Chartres
     
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  5. jb3 Well-Known Member

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    Never Chartres. The grandson of Egalitie? Marie-Therese would never agree to it. She loathed the Orleans with a passion (justifiably IMO) and was always iffy on her uncles welcoming Louis-Phillipe back into the good graces of the main branch.
     
  6. Vanity 6 Well-Known Member

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    How about married off to Austria—to Franz Karl, the OTL father of Franz Joseph?
     
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  7. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Not be so sure... Marrying Chartres would have kept her daughter and France and very rich...
    Plus is likely who Marie Antoniette had wanted/thinked a match between her daughter and Orléans (then Duke of Chartres)
     
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  8. jb3 Well-Known Member

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    Whatever Marie Antoinette may have wished originally - Orleans voted to execute his blood kinsman Louis XVI (he could have abstained even or gone other options), and then as a National Assembly member did NOTHING to save the rest of the family (or even visited them) including the children afterwards before his met his own end. Marie-Therese hated the Orleans and never trusted Louis-Phillipe. There is a very famous story in which the only time Marie-Therese and the Duchess of Berri (Chambord's mother) were sign smiling together in exile was when they heard Louis-Phillipe had been toppled from his (stolen) throne and fled to England. Unless Louis XVIII pushes the issue it will never be Chartres.
     
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  9. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

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    As for marriage, personally I would vote for Ferdinand II of the Two Sicilies. The right age group, and born of Marie Antoinette's favorite sister Maria Karolina (whose daughter, Maria Amalia, was originally promised to Louis XVII before marrying the Duc de Orleans after the Revolution). Franz Karl would also be interesting - he was supposed to inherit the throne of Austria-Hungary after his disabled brother Ferdinand abdicated. He was bullied out of it OTL by his ambitious wife Sophie of Bavaria, who wanted their son Franz Josef to become Emperor. If Titi marries Franz Karl, Sophie could marry her good buddy the Duke of Reichstadt (ironically the son of Napoleon and a second cousin once removed to Titi). That right there would make for super fun family reunions.

    As for her education, I looked first to the education of women in the French royal family. Her aunts, Èlisabeth and Clothilde, were educated in "They were given the usual education of contemporary royal princesses, focusing upon accomplishments, religion and virtue... They were tutored in botany by M. Lemonnier, in history and geography by M. Leblond, and in religion by Abbé de Montigat, Canon of Chartres". So with accomplishments, we can assume the traditional feminine accomplishments of the day: needlepoint / embroidery, drawing, singing, dancing, music. Titi's maternal grandarents and her mother were devout Catholics, so she definitely would have a heavy Catholic education, particularly virtues: chastity, kindness, charity, devotion. Marie Thérèse shared the same governess as her aunts, Marie Angélique de Mackau, who would unfortunately be dead at the time of Titi's upbringing, but left behind two daughters both close to the French royal family: Renée Suzanne de Soucy, who was considered strict and intriguing, and Marie-Angélique de Bombelles, a famous letter writer and close personal friend to Princess Èlisabeth of France.

    On Marie Thérèse's maternal side, education also seemed to be conventional. Marie Antoinette's education involved German, Italian, Latin, and French; her education also involved music. "Maria Antonia developed into a good musician. She learned to play the harp, the harpsichord and the flute. She sang during the family's evening gatherings, as she had a beautiful voice", which reinforces the 'accomplishments' portion of previously mentioned.

    So for the Princesse Thèrése Antoinette, I would assume a fairly traditional education: music and dancing, the arts (drawing, painting), embroidery, religion and religious virtues, languages (Latin, German, Italian, maybe Spanish), geography, some history, writing / spelling / reading, and 'poise' (courtly manners, etc). Her parents might chose to beef it up as -I'm assuming- she's their only child and they might choose to indulge her - one of Marie Antoinette's sisters, deemed unfit for marriage, did scientific experiments and research with her father's blessing. Her maternal grandfather had a passion for astronomy, so that could be easily added in with his blessing. So I'd stick with the traditional outline, but if she's particularly bright or gets a particularly bright governesss, I could see some more topics being added in: botany, philosophy, politics, etc.
     
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  10. JonasResende Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Marie Thérèse and Louis-Philippe III were pretty close during the dying days of their joint British exile. There's a contemporary description of the two of them walking together at Brighton basically looking "as thick as thieves". She might not have liked his dad, and what he later did (and might not have been in favour of her father-in-law/uncle's actions to emphasize the closeness between the main and cadet branches of the Bourbons, but in the 1810s there would've been no reason for her to be against the prospect of such a match.

    I suspect they might want the future Emperor Ferdinand rather. It's not as though the Bourbons are above marrying a daughter to an imbecilic Habsburg monarch (Marie Louise d'Orléans and Carlos II)
     
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  11. isabella Well-Known Member

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    No, no. An Austrian match is pretty unlikely because Marie Therese resentment against Austria was greater than the one she had against Philippe Egalite (resentment likely not transmitted to the son considering who Egalite in the end paid the price of his folly with his life). In any case, considering we do not have any Louis XIV in France and who Austria like in OTL will prioritize Franz Karl’s wedding (as that was reputed the one for continuing the dynasty) and who Marie Therese will be totally against seeing her daughter sent to be more Ferdinand’s nurse than his wife the only possible Austrian choice is Franz Karl (but considering how Marie Therese had refuted a match with Karl of Teschen for marrying Angoulême is unlikely she will consent to an Austrian match for her daughter).
    I think Ferdinand II of Naples or Chartres are by long the most likely candidates as husband for our Marie Antoinette Therese of Artois...

    About Chartres is pretty likely who Louis XVIII will push the matter for tying more the Orléans to them, Charles X also can think the same (and remember who while diffident Marie Therese never hated Orléans before the revolution of July, the father yes but not the son. Plus the fact who her mother/parents had intended Chartres’ mother for her late brother Louis Joseph and had taken in consideration the father for her, would not be ignored by Marie Therese and same for the fact who while not an ideal match Chartres at least would keep her only child at the French Court instead of sending her far away in Naples)
     
  12. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    She didn't refuse the match because she didn't like Karl/the Austrians. She refused it because her uncle "tricked" her into believing that marrying her cousin had been her parents' plan all along. Hell, Louis XVIII went so far as to forge letters from his nephew to his niece to make her think that he was interested in her. This was because, despite MR having agreed to marry Angoulême, LXVIII feared she would change her mind. I read somewhere that Marie Thérèse did think Karl was attractive, and that presumably, had the choice been hers, she would've probably preferred Karl.

     
  13. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Well, Marie Antoinette had most likely programmed a domestic match for her daughter (her life experience and the closeness to her eldest child this point strongly to that) and the only possible candidates are Angoulême and Chartres. The latter was more likely than the former (at least for Louis XVI) and that was maybe the reason behind Louis XVIII’s trick. Plus the match between Madame Royals and Karl of Teschen was wanted by Francis II who was likely pressing his cousin in accepting it (and marrying Teschen would have brought to Marie Therese stability both social and economic freeing her from the life of the emigrees) and that would be enough for making Marie Therese unsure and Louis XVIII worried.
     
  14. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Not disputing, just to explain why Louis did what he did:
    According to Turquan's bio, Franz II's idea was to carve off the areas of France not covered by Salic Law (Navarre - Louis XIII had passed an act regarding the dissolubility of the Franco-Navarrese union, but the Estates-General (not sure if in France or Navarre) never confirmed it - Provence, Lorraine and perhaps parts of Brittany/Artois) for Teschen. Then, with a "rump" France contained on all sides, the revolution could be muzzled far easier than what it was, since Revolutionary France would have to expand through Austrian held territory to get anywhere (since we saw how relatively easy this was for Napoléon OTL, I'm not sure that this would've worked. Plus, Austria already held what they regarded as MR's dowry - Marie Antoinette's diamonds, as well as cash deposited abroad by both Antoinette and LouiS XVI, which they regarded as more than sufficient coverage (it amounted to something like 2-3 million, when Antoinette's dowry to France had been only something like 400-500 thousand francs).

    However, Franz's reason was exactly what triggered Louis XVIII's response. According to Lord McCartney (the British ambassador at Louis' Veronese court) Louis wished to ensure that those parts of France not covered by Salic Law (especially Navarre, he doesn't seem to have cared much for the rest, either believing that there was no way that Austria would be able to hold it, or that the length of time those places had been part of France (with the exception of Lorraine) would count against the emperor) would not pass to anyone other than the future king of France. And also, to get his hands on the money that his brother had stored abroad. Which he found out, was actually closer to 1 million after deductions were made by the Austrian court for "expenses incurred".
     
  15. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Well, I do not knew that but do not surprise me... Poor Madame Royale, another princess used by her relatives (on both sides) after everything she had already suffered. Still she had likely married Angoulême because she knew who Francis II was trying to use her and who her parents would have chosen him over Teschen for her so I can not see her accepting a match between her daughter (and only child) and Francis’ own son. If Therese is like her mother little Madame Royale will marry Chartres, if her resentment against the Orléans greater than his wish to keep her daughter closer then Ferdinand II of Naples is the best match
     
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  16. isabella Well-Known Member

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    I also suspect she would be the latter as her daughter will be born after years of marriage and during the exile...
     
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  17. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

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    I am so excited to read this timeline
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019 at 1:50 AM