WI: Margaret of Valois, Elisabeth of Valois and Elisabeth of Austria bore male heirs?

[Jan Olbracht]

@FouDuRoy

Nobles were just dellusional, that Anna could still have child. They wanted king to have a son with Jagiellon blood.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

But more important: I am pretty sure many Polish noblemen wanted to prevent Henry to marry a younger Jagiellon descendant who may give him a son. Why? Simply to be sure Polish royalty would stay elective.

Well, simply speaking - they didn't need to prevent current king having a son to ensure the throne would stay elective. Many of them were just delusional (and that delusion was self-defeating in the end) and wished for king to have a son, but wanted monarchy to stay elective.
Maybe Henry could achieve limiting election to his male descendants - similar projects were floating around in that time (Jan Zamoyski wanted to restrict election to current monarch's sons, but I don't know if Henry would get along with him) and the final conditions of election were drawn out in 1593-1596 period (it might be either of those three years, but I don't remember exact date)

Elisabeth-Magdalena of Brandenbourg, in addition of being Sigismund I's most senior descendant, was in the right age and available to marry in 1574. Moreover, her brothers were already dead without issue, meaning there is no pottential competitor on this side.

No one gave single shit about genealogical seniority in Poland around that time, Sigismund I wasn't eldest son of Casimir IV either. Elizabeth-Magdalena was non-entity for nobles. Her relation to Sigismund I was simply too distant. Her uncle, Sigismund of Brandenburg was serious candidate to replace Sigismund II Augustus, but no one cared about kids of his sister.

(or a son of him if Henry outlives him) will be candidate to Henry's succession.

No, that relation will be too distant and anyone would ignore Sigismund Vasas's son if Sig didn't become king of Poand.

 

[FouDuRoy]

Nobles were just dellusional, that Anna could still have child.

Hard to believe all of them were.

Well, simply speaking - they didn't need to prevent current king having a son to ensure the throne would stay elective. Many of them were just delusional (and that delusion was self-defeating in the end) and wished for king to have a son, but wanted monarchy to stay elective.

In politics, nothing is ever ensured.
And having the son of the king elected after him is not the best way to keep a royalty elective.

No one gave single shit about genealogical seniority in Poland around that time

Okay.

Elizabeth-Magdalena was non-entity for nobles. Her relation to Sigismund I was simply too distant. Her uncle, Sigismund of Brandenburg was serious candidate to replace Sigismund II Augustus, but no one cared about kids of his sister.

Sigismund of Brandenbourg was Elisabeth-Magdalena's brother, not her uncle. Both were children of Hedwig Jagiellon. (But I guess it does not make a big difference anyway.)

No, that relation will be too distant and anyone would ignore Sigismund Vasas's son if Sig didn't become king of Poand.

He may still propose his candidacy. After all, Henry was elected. So why not Sigismund Vasa's son?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

And having the son of the king elected after him is not the best way to keep a royalty elective.

But it already was elective since first half of 15th century.

And Sigismund Vasa was elected due to being half Jagiellon. According to your theory he should not be elected, because he was relative of previous monarchs.

 

[FouDuRoy]

But it already was elective since first half of 15th century.

And Sigismund Vasa was elected due to being half Jagiellon. According to your theory he should not be elected, because he was relative of previous monarchs.

That's exactly what I says.
It was elective in theory but, in practice, it worked as if it was hereditary. Just like the Holy Roman Empire with the Habsburgs.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

When it is about the Valois-Angoulême, I can go very far. 😁


It was the time of the Eighty Years' War. Dutch Protestant rebels were fighting the Habsburgs' authority. In OTL, this war ended up with the formation of the Dutch Republic.
Dealing with that would be very difficult for ATL Philip III's younger half-brother.


I don't know. Sweden is not England and Sigismund is not Mary.
I do not know Swedish History enough to know how plausible a come back to Catholicism was in this time.



I am not sure.
I thought Elisabeth-Magdalena was the most strategic choice because she was Sigismund I's most senior descendant, being his eldest daughter's eldest daughter.
However, @Zygmunt Stary answered the Vasas had more significant position because of being descendants of Sigismund II's full-sister instead of his half-sister.
In any case, a marriage between Henry and Anna Vasa would have some problems.
When he came to Poland in 1574, she was too young to marry. He has to wait at least until 1580. It is not that long but, meanwhile, it is pretty sure Polish nobility would pressure him to marry Anna Jagiellon. After all, they elected him because Jean de Montluc had promised he would marry her. But more important: I am pretty sure many Polish noblemen wanted to prevent Henry to marry a younger Jagiellon descendant who may give him a son. Why? Simply to be sure Polish royalty would stay elective.
Sure, Henry can marry Anna Jagiellon and wait her death to marry Anna Vasa. However, he doesn't know how long Anna Jagiellon will live and he has no reason to assume Anna Vasa would not marry someone else before her aunt's death.
And, last but not least, it is pretty likely that Sigismund Vasa (or a son of him if Henry outlives him) will be candidate to Henry's succession. Against Henry's hypothetical son.
Would John III of Sweden approve a marriage that would weaken Sigismund's candidacy? I am not sure at all, especially considering John III had himself been candidate against Henry.
Elisabeth-Magdalena of Brandenbourg, in addition of being Sigismund I's most senior descendant, was in the right age and available to marry in 1574. Moreover, her brothers were already dead without issue, meaning there is no potential competitor on this side.


After the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre, an anonymous pamphlet claimed the Guises were male line descendants of Charlemagne and should replace the Valois on the throne of France. The Guises said they had no knowledge about that and did not want to take the throne. But, of course, they had to say that. Saying otherwise would've been open rebellion.
If Elisabeth wants to protect her son and preserve the throne for him, giving some power to the Guises is the last thing to do.
As for the Cardinal of Bourbon... Yeah... Maybe this one would be a suitable ally to Elisabeth.

When it is about the Valois-Angoulême, I can go very far. 😁


It was the time of the Eighty Years' War. Dutch Protestant rebels were fighting the Habsburgs' authority. In OTL, this war ended up with the formation of the Dutch Republic.
Dealing with that would be very difficult for ATL Philip III's younger half-brother.


I don't know. Sweden is not England and Sigismund is not Mary.
I do not know Swedish History enough to know how plausible a come back to Catholicism was in this time.



I am not sure.
I thought Elisabeth-Magdalena was the most strategic choice because she was Sigismund I's most senior descendant, being his eldest daughter's eldest daughter.
However, @Zygmunt Stary answered the Vasas had more significant position because of being descendants of Sigismund II's full-sister instead of his half-sister.
In any case, a marriage between Henry and Anna Vasa would have some problems.
When he came to Poland in 1574, she was too young to marry. He has to wait at least until 1580. It is not that long but, meanwhile, it is pretty sure Polish nobility would pressure him to marry Anna Jagiellon. After all, they elected him because Jean de Montluc had promised he would marry her. But more important: I am pretty sure many Polish noblemen wanted to prevent Henry to marry a younger Jagiellon descendant who may give him a son. Why? Simply to be sure Polish royalty would stay elective.
Sure, Henry can marry Anna Jagiellon and wait her death to marry Anna Vasa. However, he doesn't know how long Anna Jagiellon will live and he has no reason to assume Anna Vasa would not marry someone else before her aunt's death.
And, last but not least, it is pretty likely that Sigismund Vasa (or a son of him if Henry outlives him) will be candidate to Henry's succession. Against Henry's hypothetical son.
Would John III of Sweden approve a marriage that would weaken Sigismund's candidacy? I am not sure at all, especially considering John III had himself been candidate against Henry.
Elisabeth-Magdalena of Brandenbourg, in addition of being Sigismund I's most senior descendant, was in the right age and available to marry in 1574. Moreover, her brothers were already dead without issue, meaning there is no potential competitor on this side.


After the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre, an anonymous pamphlet claimed the Guises were male line descendants of Charlemagne and should replace the Valois on the throne of France. The Guises said they had no knowledge about that and did not want to take the throne. But, of course, they had to say that. Saying otherwise would've been open rebellion.
If Elisabeth wants to protect her son and preserve the throne for him, giving some power to the Guises is the last thing to do.
As for the Cardinal of Bourbon... Yeah... Maybe this one would be a suitable ally to Elisabeth.

Elisabeth likely will try to go solo in her regency but she'll be pushed down pretty quickly, let's hope she can fight...
Were the Guises descendants of Charlemagne ?

 

[FouDuRoy]

Were the Guises descendants of Charlemagne ?

Descendants of Charlemagne, yes. Like most European royals, including the Valois.
Male line descendants of Charlemagne, apparently not.
At least, if you take Wikipedia and come back in their male ancestry until the time of Charlemagne, you find this guy:

Gerard I of Paris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jan Olbracht]

That's exactly what I says.
It was elective in theory but, in practice, it worked as if it was hereditary. Just like the Holy Roman Empire with the Habsburgs.

And that was because electors wanted it to be like that. Nobles elected sons of Sigismund III, because they wanted to have monarch with Jagiellon blood.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Hard to believe all of them were.


In politics, nothing is ever ensured.
And having the son of the king elected after him is not the best way to keep a royalty elective.


Okay.


Sigismund of Brandenbourg was Elisabeth-Magdalena's brother, not her uncle. Both were children of Hedwig Jagiellon. (But I guess it does not make a big difference anyway.)


He may still propose his candidacy. After all, Henry was elected. So why not Sigismund Vasa's son?

But nobles kept electing royal sons all the way until John III-that was the first time when king of Poland had a son and that son was not elected. That is delusional and self-defeating, yes,but that's the way how it worked. What could prompt nobles to elect Sigismund Vasa's son? And as far as Elizabeth Magdalena is involved-no one in Poland cared about her ancestry from Sigismund I. Husband of her full sister, Sophia, was serious candidate to Polish throne but the argument for him was that he was "of the same language" with electors (he was Czech) not that his wife was a granddaughter of Sigismund I. Henry would need to dig up Elizabeth Magdalena's ancestry himself.

 

[FouDuRoy]

And that was because electors wanted it to be like that. Nobles elected sons of Sigismund III, because they wanted to have monarch with Jagiellon blood.

But nobles kept electing royal sons all the way until John III-that was the first time when king of Poland had a son and that son was not elected. That is delusional and self-defeating, yes,but that's the way how it worked.

We agree.

What could prompt nobles to elect Sigismund Vasa's son?

Any reason he would put forward.
After all, several years sooner, who would have expected they would elect a French prince?

And as far as Elizabeth Magdalena is involved-no one in Poland cared about her ancestry from Sigismund I.

I guess some people would care and other not.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Said French prince promised to marry Jagiellon princess and it was hoped, that, despite her age, she'd give him half-Jagiellon son.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

several years sooner, who would have expected they would elect a French prince?

Well, there was no royal son in that situation.