WI: Margaret Douglas, Css of Lennox Born Male

Posting this since there seems to be an interest in Henry VIII dying/who Mary marries etc, so I figure why not:

WI Margaret Tudor gives birth to a son instead of a daughter at Harbottle Castle in November 1515, the boy's named Robert. Things in England run more or less on schedule, Katherine of Aragon births a daughter, named Mary in 1516, but by the time she hits menopause still no son for Henry.

Where do things go from here? Henry still probably tears the country apart if he can't get a divorce from his agéd wife. What happens to young Angus? Margaret Douglas was placed in the English succession ahead of her Stewart half-brother/niece AFAIK, but would anyone agree to Henry doing the same with a Scots' lord? Sure, the boy's born in England, but he's for all intents and purposes a foreigner with regard to his title, his surname, etc. How would Henry deal with his nephew? And would this boy's existence keep his parents' marriage together?
 
I think a lot of people would agree. In fact, he is more or less the obvious heir and will probably spend a lot of time in England to the extent Henry permits.
 
I think a lot of people would agree. In fact, he is more or less the obvious heir and will probably spend a lot of time in England to the extent Henry permits.

In which case, he might attract animosity from Katherine of Aragon (who believed that her daughter had the right to rule if there was no legitimate son)?

I think Henry might relent and let the boy grow up at court.

Possibly. But Henry had his moments, he could smile at you one day and behead you the next - ask Buckingham, More, Fisher, two of his wives, the Countess of Salisbury, the list goes on. Granted, most of those could be avoided with a POD in 1515, but Henry's problem was that he took it as a personal affront to his manhood that he couldn't have sons; so I think as long as he has none legitimate by the time Kate stops bleeding, the events that led to Anne Boleyn becoming queen might still happen. However, a POD so early could mean that if they do get together, Elizabeth is born male or Anne carries a son to term, or whatever.
 
Wait, what? OTL, Margaret's kids were removed from the succession by Henry because he thought their mother (his sister) was some variant of a slut for marrying a man she wanted rather than remaining regent for her son......twice. And H8 was pissed because SHE got an annulment and he didn't.

If Margaret Douglas were Robert Douglas, he won't be at the English Court - he's the heir to the Angus title and half brother to the king. More than likely, he'll be raised with the king and be the king's lifelong friend and the pair will have a common enemy in Robert's overbearing, rash, brash, and lacking in common sense father.
 
I don't think anything will 'save' the marriage of Archibald Douglas and Margaret Tudor. She was in love to begin with and he strangled her love with both hands. Hence the annulment based upon the wishful reports of James IV surviving Flodden......
 
Well good news for Crawford of Lymond then. He's never estranged from his family and history is altered forever. Notably, Russia likely never becomes a great power.
 
Well good news for Crawford of Lymond then. He's never estranged from his family and history is altered forever. Notably, Russia likely never becomes a great power.

The only Crawford of Lymond I find is a fictional character in a series of novels. Please tell me you're not referring to him.
 
Wait, what? OTL, Margaret's kids were removed from the succession by Henry because he thought their mother (his sister) was some variant of a slut for marrying a man she wanted rather than remaining regent for her son......twice. And H8 was pissed because SHE got an annulment and he didn't.

If Margaret Douglas were Robert Douglas, he won't be at the English Court - he's the heir to the Angus title and half brother to the king. More than likely, he'll be raised with the king and be the king's lifelong friend and the pair will have a common enemy in Robert's overbearing, rash, brash, and lacking in common sense father.

As I understand it, her Stewart kids were removed, but the Countess of Lennox stayed in the succession thanks to her 1) not being heir to a foreign power; and 2) being born on English soil. But I could be wrong. Chances are good that if things go as OTL, between divorcing Anne Boleyn and declaring their daughter illegitimate, and the birth of his own son (if indeed this still happens), Henry is willing to countenance Robert as reasonably high enough in the succession - albeit perhaps rather as a possible husband for Mary (no messy personal unions to worry about) than as a figure in his own right.
 
But Robert will still be raised in Scotland. It's not the same with a son as with a daughter. OTL, Archibald Douglas had no legitimate (or otherwise) son to inherit. Robert will be his heir and since his (Robert's) mother is the mother of the king, odds are he will be raised with his half-brother. The "Margaret Douglas in the English court" thing isn't going to happen here. AFAIK, all his sister's children were eventually removed from the succession. Remember, Margaret Douglas kept find unapproved boyfriends......she was attractive to these men specifically because she was the King's niece.
 
But Robert will still be raised in Scotland. It's not the same with a son as with a daughter. OTL, Archibald Douglas had no legitimate (or otherwise) son to inherit. Robert will be his heir and since his (Robert's) mother is the mother of the king, odds are he will be raised with his half-brother. The "Margaret Douglas in the English court" thing isn't going to happen here. AFAIK, all his sister's children were eventually removed from the succession. Remember, Margaret Douglas kept find unapproved boyfriends......she was attractive to these men specifically because she was the King's niece.

Fair enough.

Though, I wonder, would there be enough Scots' families throwing their daughters at him as a route to the king? ICR what James V and his half-sister's relationship was like, but let's assume James V and Robbie have a reasonably fair relationship with a few clouds (like Angus himself). Would James be bartering his half-brother off in any fashion?
 
Fair enough.

Though, I wonder, would there be enough Scots' families throwing their daughters at him as a route to the king? ICR what James V and his half-sister's relationship was like, but let's assume James V and Robbie have a reasonably fair relationship with a few clouds (like Angus himself). Would James be bartering his half-brother off in any fashion?
I'd imagine so
 
Margaret was born in England but spent a few years in Scotland before returning to England in the late 1520s when Angus finally fell out with James V.
It is likely a son will follow a similar path - with the boy switching between his mother and father's custody as their marital difficulties play out - in otl James V's final fall out with his stepfather meant the Douglas clan completely fell from power - Douglas fled to England and his remaining relatives in Scotland all paid the price. James V's revenge if you like didn't include his half sister but Angus still sent her to England.
I would expect you have two options 1) Angus sends his heir to England where he remains in Henry's custody until Angus joins him a year later as a penniless exile reliant on Henry's charity or 2) Margaret manages to gain her son and he remains with her and his new stepfather Methven

Most likely I think is Angus and his son living on Henry's charity in England - it is likely the young Douglas will be kept in England even when his father returns on Henry's behalf after James V's death.

In that circumstance it is likely he will be rumoured as possible husband for Mary or for Elizabeth a bit later - though if he resembles his otl sister or his parents then he is just as likely to annoy his uncle by a dubious relationship or two. Also his parents divorce will lead to suggestions of illegitimacy and his financial position will be pretty poor not making him a particularly good match. The return of his father to Scotland and perhaps the restoration of his estates will in the early 40s make him a better catch particularly if he is allowed to join his father in Scotland ahead of the Anglo-Scots war.

Then of course he will become a major player in the battle for control of Mary Stewart and the emerging religious crisis in Scotland.

If he stays in Scotland as a teenager then he might well have been granted the Douglas estates on his father's forfeiture - in which case Methven (his mother's new husband) will probably help himself to the income and eventually fall out with him (James V remained close to Methven despite his mother's issues so Douglas might be the same of course). In that scenario I would expect a betrothal to someone within the wider Stewart clan as his stepfather will want to retain influence and control and James will probably approve of it.

In terms of the English succession - I doubt it will make a difference - Henry's anger with his sister and his preference for their younger sister Mary is likely to continue his decision to exclude all Margaret's descendants in his will as in otl. Long term there is no Darnley for Mary Stuart to marry.

Though he or his descendants may well be mentioned as possible matches for both Elizabeth and Mary Stuart in the next decades or so - and certainly his line will have a claim to England if Elizabeth still dies childless.
 
Respectfully, no. The regency council dispensed with Lady Margaret Douglas because she was a female and of no consequence, given her mother's relationship with the King of England. The heir to a Scottish Earldom is not of no consequence and will therefore be kept in Scotland, under their control. You see, that's also a way of ensuring his father's behavior (which will be different, because of the fact he has a legitimate male heir, although he probably won't treat Margaret any better). Robert will be raised with James rather than be sent to England. OTL, the forfeited estates went to Archibald's nephew; in this TL (if forfeited), they will go directly to Robert - unless he's in England, in which case he's just as untrustworthy as his father and David will inherit as OTL.
 
With respect not necessarily so.

There was no real effective council in this period - it was faction riven and was not a regency council in the way we understand that today - with control bouncing between, the council, Margaret, Albany , Douglas and others until 1528 - Margaret Douglas wasn't dispensed with - she was sent to England at her father's command as his control of the King collapsed and he feared for his own safety with no reference to anyone else - once she was in England (where her father fled the following year) there was no great campaign to get her back.

Custody of the child is all that really matters - and usually most right thinking people would expect a child to remain with its father even in the case of the mother being of high rank and even if there was an estrangement - especially in the case of a male heir as you say.
I suspect the scenario is the child will be used as a hostage of fortune in Douglas and Margaret's battles - perhaps ending up with James V at some point.
However even had the young Douglas been placed in the King's nursery as a child by 1525 control in Scotland was in Angus' hands as Keeper of the King - much to his estranged wife's frustration - so the boy will be back in his charge.

When James finally broke free the entire Douglas clan (with exception of his half sister) were banned his presence and proscribed - their assets taken by the crown (Douglas' nephew was a teenager and his father George was in as much trouble as the rest of his family - the family didn't get their lands back until the 1540s)

The same year Douglas sent his daughter to England and followed her a year later - he might well do exactly the same in this scenario - there is no advantage for him leaving the boy in Scotland - a wise move given how James treated the rest of his family left in Scotland. Why leave a hostage to fortune.
Suspect a constant battle between Henry, James and Margaret to return the boy for the next couple of years until he is of age.

As i said if the boy is in his mother's custody in 28/29 or with the King himself then he remains and Margaret and Methven will no doubt persuade the king to grant the forfeited estates back to the lawful heir the King 's half brother and he stays in Scotland with Methven bleeding him dry just as he did Margaret.
 
But if he (Archibald) can keep his son with the King, he has a toehold that he never relinquishes. If the boys are raised together, unless Robert is as arrogant as his father, James will be kinder to Robert and still dislike Archibald. It's a smart strategy, if Archibald can pull it off.
 
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